Crossflow head swap

[Anonymous]

Has anyone been following the experimental XF 200 in the tech section of this site? Is anyone else trying this? One thing I was thinking of is that if and when this idea is ironed out and workable for the rest of us, does anyone know of any good connections to find a crossflow head, intake, and exhaust? I've done a little looking online, but I can't find much. Also, how much is the cost of the head set up and shipping from Australia?

Thanks,
Nate.

 

[xctasy]

Nate, the cross-flow heads are just dirt cheap at the moment. Sort of like sparrows. Buy three, get two free. Last one I got was NZ30 bucks. (ONLY 65 US ENTS TO YOUR DOLLAR).

The cross-flow Falcon was the best selling 6-cylinder car in the 80's in OZ and NZ. Around a million OHV crossflows from 1976 to 1993, around 600, 000 were alloy headed, based on about 65,000 falcons/Cortinas and F150/Broncos being sold per year in Aussie alone.

Jacks 200 x-flow idea is really sound. With the alloy head, there is the option of running:-
4.1 X-FLOW efi,
Ray Hall, Cain, Redline, Ultraflow 2-bbl intakes,
Cain, Redline, Lynx 4-bbl intakes,
Perry/Pacemaker/Genie extractors (headers to you!),
AIT, Normalair Garret/ Mike Vine/SKF turbo manifolds...

any thing that was made in the 80's for hi-performance cross-flow Falcons fits this.

The only issue is the ignition. Unless you have some smarts in fitting the ignition around a space occupied by the intake manifolds number 1 and 2 runners, i'd look at getting the DIS system from SDS. I've looked at a 1.5" spacer on the stock intake manifold, and placing an 8.5" tube on to the ignition, but this puts the spark source beside the carb.

The other option is using two 2-bbl Weber ADM manifolds of the 1982-1993 cars, and joining them together with a log-style blanking plug at each end. You could then fit two 2300 or 5200 Holley carbs and get a good level of power at minimal expense

I'm quite sure all the cooling system and head sealing issues will work out okay. Jack has to block off all the existing alloy head water galleries as the non-cross flow has non on the rhs. So he opens up the existing holes in the block and alloy head. If that becomes a problem, the exhast valve water jackets can be externally drained via 5/16 steel lines like how the Aussie x-flow turbos run.

I've got a 200 cube engine, as well as my 250 x-flow, and have looked at the cast iron, alloy cross-flows, and the stock log heads on the 200 block.

Jacks engineering is first rate. He also has a cost effective focus. His parts inventory seams really good.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all of that information. Wow! I can't believe those heads are so cheap! Any idea of places online to contact about shipping one over? I'm still playing with the idea, but when this is workable, it will be very exciting. I have never bought anything over seas, so this is all new to me.

Thanks,
Nate.

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder if I can make one of them smog leagle

 

[twentyover]

I'm certain that if there is demand the Az-Coupe will bring them in. They are ALOT more attractive to me that a 2V-OZ or SP/ME Argentine head.

I've been idling waiting for Jack's next installment. The minute he fires that baby up, I'm on the phone to Mike to see if his OZ cannection can get me one

 

[addo]

They're not that cheap in Australia, guys. NZ has different pricing. I just picked up an EFI fanimold for Harrie (actually, Fingers found it), and it was $110. In Sydney they are asking $220-$250 just for that manifold. A whole motor is about $450 (EFI version) asking. Carbed are less.

For the effort, you are better fitting the whole motor.

Adam.

 

[xctasy]

I wonder if I can make one of them smog leagle

It's smog legal to US 75 if you use the 1986 on cylinder head and carb or injection set-up. The Austrailan Design Rule ADR37A was the same.

The smog Weber carby 3.3 gave 120 net hp, 177 lb-ft. The carby 4.1 gave 131 hp, and 228 lb-ft. The EFI gave 162 hp, and 247 lb-ft.

Each ran on what the Aussies termed as 91 unleaded, by the RON number, possibly your 87 octane. They had electronic spark control, a manifold absolute pressure module, and a 3-way cat ehxahst with egr. They didn't get an air-pump. For a 75 to 77 200 OR 250, you've got little worry. Past that year, you'll have to do some chatting with the smoke and mirrors brigade before it gets rejected on an annual inspection.

The core cost won't stop people doing this. It all comes down to getting a cylinder head, and understanding that the conversion is for those who aren't prepared to skimp on getting the details right. A 200 cube x-flow is sort of like doing a Boss 302 Windsor with Aussie 2V Cleveland heads, or Arden heads on a 239 Flattie, or placing a set of Hemi 426 heads on a 440 Wedge. It's difficult, but not impossible.

Remember, Jacks true genius was 10% inspiration, and what your seeing is the 90% persperation. Army poof is to come, troops!

As for importing heads or engines, well, check past posts from Spyke, Ausheads, JD, Mustangaroo.. then check the South American memembers.

There is an issue of trust and getting the head landed in the first instance. The money charged must cover those guys risks if its not delievered. A big game of chess, with bigger pieces.

 

[addo]

Well, the trust issue is a good point. I'm currently out approx USD$600-odd on parts that have crossed the sea. Some of that will require a little chasing...

But, Nate, since you asked, one-off imports are way dearer. You'll pay $100-odd for a crate, $200-odd shipping, clearance/container depot fees ($300?), and then there's the parts cost to begin with. Spend $600 to import parts valued at $250? That's what I'm getting at.

Solution is one of two things. Either buy off a bulk importer, and wear less related costs, or build a bigger box. Put in your motor, headers and bell (whole deal), add some closed chamber 351C heads (coupla pairs), and throw these on ebay to offset your costs. Freight and other fees will be similar to the small box mentioned before!

Regards, Adam.

 

[MustangSix]

I'm hoping to get caught up on a few things in the next week or so. I may actually have some carbs mounted this weekend and we'll try to fire it up.

I like the concept because the head is perfectly sized for 200 cubes. Great ports, right sized chambers, good valve ratios. And it makes the powerplant 40 lbs lighter.

But let's see if there are any cooling issues before you start buying heads.

 

[addo]

It's a shame the OHC heads or the alloy Healey ones can't fit readily.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, everyone. It is encouraging that so many of you are watching this too, so I know it isn't just me. I'll keep watching here, and when this gets going, I would love to go in in bulk with others.

Thanks,
nate.

 

[MustangSix]

I have another head modification on the bench that has been waiting for attention that may be easier than the crossflow swap and a lot cheaper than the 2V. After I get this corssflow done, I'll see about doing something with it, and I promise it will be a high flowing bolt on, no block mods.

 

[100_2023]

I have to say that I check this forum every day for more information or progress on Jack's crossflow 200 project. I have been so excited about the prospect of it, that I want a vehicle with a 200 six/5 speed combo. I have sold my '50 Chevy Fleetline(cruiser), '86 Mustang(street/strip), and '62 Ranchero(daily driver, which may have been a mistake considering how good of a candidate it probably was). I have also tried to sell my V-8 Pinto(show car/drag racer), with no luck, just to make room for it. I have a '78 Mercury Zephyr 4 door that I was working on to make it a supercharged small block sleeper. This might be a good candidate, considering it originally had a 200/C-4 in it. I have already completely prepped it for the V-8 swap, but have been holding on completing it. I have it's original 200 plus another and the 170 that was originally in the Ranchero before I put a small block V-8 in it. Jack, I can't wait till you fire up the lo-cost roadster for the first time. There's nothing like the first time you fire up an engine you built and hear it roar to life! I'll be anxiously waiting and watching for updates. This is the first time I have ever posted anything since the old forum, even though I do read from this forum every day. I was reading the string on Col West earlier, and I must say that I believe this is one of the most respectable and courteous forums on the web. I have a lot of respect for the members on this forum and their high moral character. I just retired from the Air Force myself in October. I thank you guys for such a helpful and enjoyable place to go to.

Darrell

 

[MustangSix]

Greetings Darrell! congrats on joining the rest of us retirees.

I have actually already made the Crossflow belch smoke and flames. Last week my son and I squirted fuel into the stubs and hit the starter. Flames came out the open headers, children cried, cats fled, dogs howled... ..the engine only ran for two seconds like that, but it was a glorious noise. I have no doubt it will start and run. I just have concerns mostly about the cooling mods. But I think it will be ok.

What I'm really looking forward to is to see if the engine will match the ~250hp predicted by the simulations.

 

[xctasy]

hacked excerpt fromsuper4ord

...high moral character...

Yep, that's 'cause were 'high' on high performance Henries which don't leave your kids foodless and on the street. Surely one of the best 'opiums of the people' ever!

I like the relief map of that engine analyser run, Jack. Its got the Right Stuff!


And if theres any cooling issues, just use the smaller diameter 1/4 or 5/16" plumbing. Thats the solution I was alluding to before. It's all taking shape Boss! Oh, by the way, that big 2" pump will just make it worse...

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Adam, packaging several things in one crate is a great idea. I've mentioned before that some of you should consider partnering up to bring over a crate and splitting the costs. Throwing in other things, cleve heads, gaket sets, etc. makes your total shipping costs lower. If you're lucky you can find a local importer/exporter who ships from Australia who will let you add your crate in their container. I shipped two crates of Cleveland heads this way and it cost me less than two pairs of Nikes for each box.

 

[xctasy]

I wonder if there are any higher value products we could add. Cheese, wine, beer, bootleg Hobbit videos. No, just kidding.

The option of placing some emission legal V6 Holden Commodore 3800 V6's with THM 700's and T5's. Just like the front drive ones but with rwd hoses and a good old chevy bell housing and main seal. 168 to 199 hp.

These engines have supercharged 230 hp versions which could command a good price. They suit RWD drive trains. Great replacement for old B-bodies.

Or Chrylser Hemi 245/265's for pre 1975 Valiants. These have adaptors for bullet proof 904 or 727 autos, or the Mopar 4-speeds.

Or 4.0 Falcon OHC's for fitting to pre 1978 Granadas, Mavericks and pre 74 Mustangs. Power from 199 to 235 hp. T5's or perhaps you could bolt on a US THM or AOD if you wanted.

The good thing is most of these engines have emmissions gear which complies for pre 1980 vehicles in most states.

Thing is, NZ is killing its old dungers fast as it imports second hand post 96 Jap cars. Every man and his dog has a Japper, and the good old barges like Holdens, Falcons and Valiants don't aren't as compact as the Jap stuff, so there aftermarket value is less. In Oz, they command much higher prices.

Filling that container now? Maybee we should expand out and get all of the Big Three on board.

 

[AzCoupe]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I just got home from LA.

If this proves out and there are no cooling issues, then I will definately be bringing them over. I'm sure Phil (Ausheads) will too. So getting them locally (USA) will not be a problem. Phil and I both import by container, so we can do it much cheaper. And we both take care of all the custom clearances, duty, dock fees, and handling charges.

I don't have a firm price yet, but we are working on it. Availability is no problem as these heads are plentiful.

I plan on offering two options. Just the head as is, or a kit. The kit will include a fully machined head (with the mods already done), choice of manifold, headers, block plate and all other misc parts required.

A percentage of all sales will go towards supporting this forum (and a paint job for the lotus ), after all, it is Jack's baby.

And I have more news. While I was in LA today, I ran into the Southwest Regional Sales Manager for Manley (by chance). We got to talking over coffee, and he said he will try to help us out. He is going to check and see if they can produce custom forged pistons (dished and flat tops) and forged rods for our little sixes. I should have an answer by the end of Jan. 8)

 

[CobraSix]

Mike,

I hate you....just as I get mY aussie 250/2V ready to go...

Jack...okay, you've wet my interest...some more details on this "Other" project you are working on. You can't tease us like that.

Slade

 

[MustangSix]

I'm hopeful that the head will work with the simple mods I've incorporated.

Some resaerch I've done indicates that the passages that I've eliminated are not really essential for cooling per se, but are more for steam relief in the block. I believe that opening the passages on the other side as we've done will perform the same function. The mods are almost identical to those required to put a 4.0 Jeep head on a Jeep 258 and it seems to work fine in that environment. There are some thermal distribution differences between a Jeep head and a crossflow, but the coolant flow path is similar.

The cooling mod in the pic above may have been necessary because of the greater temps and heat load in the vicinity of the exhaust ports due to the turbo. In a normally aspirated engine, the heat should be far more manageable.

If additional steam relief is needed, instead of the external tubing shown, I think I my drill some 1/8" holes in the deck with corresponding holes in the head on the exhaust side. But that's a last resort.

On the other project, I think there are some things that can be done with a log head that could significantly boost airflow on both the intake and exhaust side even thru the stock size valves.