degree cam 264/264-110

[chopperman69]

I've got a long term 200 project that is finally getting close and I'm a little stumped on degreeing the cam. Here are the specs.

200 (+0.030)
Clay Smith/Classic Inlines 264-110 cam
JP Performance dual roller timing chain

I've got the timing set installed dot-to-dot, the crank key and the crank gear slot (0) are at 12 o'clock, and the dot on the cam gear is at 6 o'clock.

I determined TDC using a piston stop and a degree wheel so I'm certain this is correct. When I degree the cam on the 1st intake lobe, I'm seeing about 3 degrees at 0.050 BTDC. When I look at the specs posted for the cam, it shows it should be 22 degrees.

http://classicinlines.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CSC-264-HSP-10

I didn't expect it to be perfect, but I'm alarmed it is off by a mile. I check this several times and I keep coming up with the same results. My ultimate goal is to advance this cam 4 degrees, but I'm not sure how to get there from here.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Scot in OKC

 

[MPGmustang]

that intake open and close are wrong... with my 264/274 -110 .450 cam it never lined up... just go the classic way, find .50 after opening and .50 when closing, add together and divide, that's your intake lobe position, for 4* advanced, you want it @ 106*... the exhaust side should result to 114*

so example...
.050 open = 3
.050 closing = 217
3+217 = 220/2=110 = straight up....

OR
.050 opening = 3
.050 closing = 209
3+209=212/2 = 106 = 4* advanced...

or
.050 opening = 3
.050 closing = 225
3+225=228/2=114 = 4* retarded...

remember, IF the intake is 106* then the exhaust has the extra 4* so it will sit at 114* (actually this seems weird math if someone can double check me...)

 

[chopperman69]

Thanks.

So the specs on the website are wrong? Maybe Mike can chime in with the correct numbers.

 

[bubba22349]

The cam specs on the site are right.

trying looking at this for some info hope it helps you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-GA494SJQ&feature=plcp

 

[First Fox]

Just a thought, are you using a solid lifter for the degreeing? How do you have the dial indicator setup for the lobe measurement? Nothing is moving around or out of alignment?

When you say it is 3*, that is at .050" lift? That is almost 20 degrees retarded! Instead of trying to explain how to degree the cam, I will assume you have done your homework and are doing your job correctly.

Why would it be this far off? It could be a bad cam core with the pin in the wrong place. (Not likely) or the timing set was not marked properly. (Pretty likely.) I just installed mine with a stock set and it was WAY advanced also. I had to file a new crank keyway into the gear to get the cam timing correct. Here is a link to my thread where I was asking for timing set information in the middle of degreeing the cam.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69424

It doesnt matter what marks are on the gears as far as "0" or "+2" etc, you have to make the valve events coincide with the specs on the cam card. IF you are certain you have true tdc and everything is setup correctly, pop the gears off and advance the timing set, reinstall everything and check it again just the way you are doing. This is assuming your timing set has offset keyways.

When you are set up correctly, the timing events will match the cam card exactly, regardless of what the timing set reads.

 

[chopperman69]

First Fox,

I'm using an old hydraulic lifter that has the spring removed and it has been shimmed solid with washers. The dial indicator is right above the lifter. My setup looks just like your avatar picture. You are correct, 3* at .050" lift and almost 20* retarded. That is why I was so alarmed. Like you I suspect either a bad cam or timing set that is mislabeled.

I will take another shot at this over the weekend. The JP Performance timing set is adjustable, so I should be able to advance it and see if I make any progress.

 

[drag-200stang]

The valve opening and closing events on the card aren't wrong - they're advertised numbers - not at 0.050. Advertised numbers are generally somewhere between 0.012 and 0.019. It would be nice if they gave you the intake and exhaust opening and closing events at 0.050, but they don't. I guess they want you to use the center line method which I really don't understand that well. I'm old school and the way it was done was the cam card had opening and closing events for the valves and a clearance checking number (either advertised or at 0.050). Also duration and what lift to check it at and total lobe lift.

I like using more that one method to degree a cam. That way if I make a mistake I will find it with the other method. I like to see when my valves are opening and closing according to the cam card. If you want to double check your work, you could take the advertised figures on the cam card and try checking them at 0.012 lift. This is a guess. Just keep changing the number until the intake and exhaust valve events match your cam card. If the cam is off, you'll be able to tell if you use your head. Make sure you're checking in the right direction without backing up because a slack in the chain will throw off your numbers and of course that will take a few times to figure out.

If you really want to pull your hair out, you could check top dead center on number 6 should be the same as number 1 if the crank is indexed correctly and check intake and exhaust opening and closing events. But it may be better not knowing.

 

[wsa111]

Most of the advertised duration on a hydraulic camshaft are at .006"-.007".
The results are best described by someone who has installed the camshaft you are looking at.
The X factor is the rate of lift fast or slow.
Thats why a solid lifter camshaft is more consistant in what you got.

 

[xctasy]

See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69573&p=533450#p533450

Here is a picture of a stock cam for a big six. For years I waged a one-man-war in Ford to stop using the polar charts as shown above, which are great if you are a camshaft manufacturer but far inferior to the "time line" layout I present here in terms of understanding what is happening at the valve wrt time. This graph will show the lift events as time progresses.

A lot of wisdom in those responses from FTF!

Its a buyers market, politely bludgeon the supplier with a big stick. In the US, the depth of knowledge is out there, but so is ignorance, and cam suppliers have to deal with a lot of high end technical issues as well as more mundane request, and they tend to do what they want to when selling cams.

Talk to the supplier, and they will help you out.

 

[First Fox]

Most of the advertised duration on a hydraulic camshaft are at .006"-.007".
The results are best described by someone who has installed the camshaft you are looking at.
The X factor is the rate of lift fast or slow.
Thats why a solid lifter camshaft is more consistant in what you got.

Yes. At .050 lift numbers are much easier to work with and is EXACTLY why cam manufacturers should just make it a standard to use @.050 measurements and be done with it but they dont, so it doesn't matter I guess. I never understood the "advertised" duration game they play at all.

This issue is likely your problem as after just looking at your cam card it is not clear where they measure timing events. On my comp 260, it is clearly stated that the events are @ .006 lift and after fixing my timing chain problem, everything was right on with those numbers. You may want to make a call to the manufacturer and figure out what number they use and maybe politely suggest they put such important information on the cam card. 8)

 

[chopperman69]

Took another shot at it this weekend. Using the center line method, I come up with 104* center line. So even though they (Clay Smith) advertise their cams are ground "straight up" it appears this one is advanced 6*.

I'm using one of the double roller chains from Mike and I'm a little concerned about the "slack" in the new chain. Should I be?

I need to decide if I want to retard this one 2* (get me back to 4* advanced) or swap out the timing set for a stock setup (and stay 6* advanced) to eliminate the slack. The dual roller is a nice piece, it's the slack that's bugging me now.

Any advice on this matter is welcomed.

 

[First Fox]

Took another shot at it this weekend. Using the center line method, I come up with 104* center line. So even though they (Clay Smith) advertise their cams are ground "straight up" it appears this one is advanced 6*.

I'm using one of the double roller chains from Mike and I'm a little concerned about the "slack" in the new chain. Should I be?

I need to decide if I want to retard this one 2* (get me back to 4* advanced) or swap out the timing set for a stock setup (and stay 6* advanced) to eliminate the slack. The dual roller is a nice piece, it's the slack that's bugging me now.

Any advice on this matter is welcomed.

Glad you got it figured out. 8)

I know how you feel being a couple of degrees off, but 2 degrees from where you want to be is pretty much in the ballpark and will be fine, 20 degrees... not so much. 8) If you did your homework and decided you really want it installed at 4 degrees advanced from straight up, them you will have to use the -2 keyway (assuming it has one) if it has one and re degree it of course to ensure it is correct.

If the slack in that roller is really bugging you, you can certainly throw the dice on a stock setup as they are cheap, but it may or may not put you at 6* advance. It may put you straight up or way retarded or where ever and though you would likely have a tighter chain, (at least for a while) it would be much more difficult to phase the cam without milling new keyways in the gears. I am of course playing devils advocate here as this is exactly what I did with my stock replacement chain that kindly had the cam 10 degrees retarded when I installed it. I just used a protractor and marked 10 degrees on the crank gear where the new keyway would have to be cut, and hit it with a tiny dremel stone, and squared it with a file and worked it until it fit the crank. It took two attempts, but it ended up within one degree of where I wanted it.

 

[chopperman69]

I called Clay Smith today and they told me those valve timing events on the cam card are taken at .007" lift.

I probably should have asked them why they don't put that on the cam card. Maybe they're saving money in printing costs...

 

[First Fox]

I called Clay Smith today and they told me those valve timing events on the cam card are taken at .007" lift.

I probably should have asked them why they don't put that on the cam card. Maybe they're saving money in printing costs...

Nice work. Perhaps Mike could add that info on the cam cards that are on the site? Could save some headache for the next guy. 8)

By the way, how did the numbers come out when measured @ .007"?

 

[chopperman69]

Nice work. Perhaps Mike could add that info on the cam cards that are on the site? Could save some headache for the next guy. 8)

By the way, how did the numbers come out when measured @ .007"?

Today I installed the cam with the crank gear at -2 (2* retarded) and it came in right at 106.25*. That's about as close to 4* advanced as I'm gonna get.

I then checked the duration on the intake side at .007" lift and got the following:

Intake opens at 24* (cam card calls for 22*)
Intake closes at 63* (cam card calls for 62*)

Overall I'm pleased with these results.

Next weekend I'll get the aluminum head installed and check the pushrod length. We made huge progress today and we're getting very close now.

 

[chad]

"...we're getting very close now..."
Go Scott! Rootin for ya!

 

[First Fox]

I then checked the duration on the intake side at .007" lift and got the following:

Intake opens at 24* (cam card calls for 22*)
Intake closes at 63* (cam card calls for 62*)

Overall I'm pleased with these results.

Next weekend I'll get the aluminum head installed and check the pushrod length. We made huge progress today and we're getting very close now.

Yeah, that's the bad part of listing cam events at those low numbers like they do. At .006" or ..007" the the dial indicator is moving so slowly, as I'm sure you noticed, that it's easy to be off a degree or 2. The .050" numbers are more accurate because the dial indicator is moving much more quickly and it is easier to get it "right on", or as they say in french, "dead nuts".

Again, no idea why the .050" numbers aren't standardized, but if I were the king of the world, that would be the first thing I would change. Glad you got it figured out!