Help identifying 200 3sp setup

[hoodooman]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to fords. I picked up a 66 mustang that I'm attempting to get back on the road. The car originally had a 200/c4. The car now has a 170 from a 61 falcon in it and a c4 auto. the 170 runs, but runs badly and needs totally rebuilt. I found a gentleman on CL that is selling a 200 and a 3sp manual trans. he says it's out of his 65 mustang and that it runs good. I'd like to pick it up if it's a decent setup. I've only seen pics of the engine/trans so far. I'm scheduled to go look at it, 3 hours away, after christmas. the guy has everything for it - shifter, linkage, bellhousing, flywheel zbar etc... Here's what I'm worried about.

- The block seems to be a 65 from the numbers on the block "C5DE" (so, this is NOT a dual-pattern block that can use a v8 bellhousing)

- The transmission has 9 top cover bolts, so to me it would be the 3.03 three speed, not the 2.77 (4 top cover bolts) three speed that was original behind a pre 67 block

- he has a 9" non-dished flywheel (didn't the 170/early 200 ONLY have the 8.5" dished flywheel?)

- the trans/engine are currently not mated. he SAYS this setup came out of his car. I'm concerned about the 3.03 not being able to be mounted behind a non- dual pattern block. from my research, that bellhousing/transmission CANNOT be mounted behind an inline 6 that is not the dual pattern block. only the 2.77 trans/belhousing 8.5" flywheel.


so my question: is it possible to put the 3.03 trans/bell behind the 65 single pattern 200 block? or is this guy trying to fool me? from my research, it is not possible. i don't want to drive the 3 hours to check it out and find out that the bolt patterns don't line up between the bell and the engine.

Here is a link to the pictures I have hosted on dropbox. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/so5uyrc215mb ... XH1Ha?dl=0

i really appreciate everyone's input. thank you so much!

 

[bubba22349]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to fords. I picked up a 66 mustang that I'm attempting to get back on the road. The car originally had a 200/c4. The car now has a 170 from a 61 falcon in it and a c4 auto. the 170 runs, but runs badly and needs totally rebuilt. I found a gentleman on CL that is selling a 200 and a 3sp manual trans. he says it's out of his 65 mustang and that it runs good. I'd like to pick it up if it's a decent setup. I've only seen pics of the engine/trans so far. I'm scheduled to go look at it, 3 hours away, after christmas. the guy has everything for it - shifter, linkage, bellhousing, flywheel zbar etc... Here's what I'm worried about.

- The block seems to be a 65 from the numbers on the block "C5DE" (so, this is NOT a dual-pattern block that can use a v8 bellhousing)

- The transmission has 9 top cover bolts, so to me it would be the 3.03 three speed, not the 2.77 (4 top cover bolts) three speed that was original behind a pre 67 block

- he has a 9" non-dished flywheel (didn't the 170/early 200 ONLY have the 8.5" dished flywheel?)

- the trans/engine are currently not mated. he SAYS this setup came out of his car. I'm concerned about the 3.03 not being able to be mounted behind a non- dual pattern block. from my research, that bellhousing/transmission CANNOT be mounted behind an inline 6 that is not the dual pattern block. only the 2.77 trans/belhousing 8.5" flywheel.


so my question: is it possible to put the 3.03 trans/bell behind the 65 single pattern 200 block? or is this guy trying to fool me? from my research, it is not possible. i don't want to drive the 3 hours to check it out and find out that the bolt patterns don't line up between the bell and the engine.

Here is a link to the pictures I have hosted on dropbox. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/so5uyrc215mb ... XH1Ha?dl=0

i really appreciate everyone's input. thank you so much!

1. Yes that is a 200 engine of around a 1965 vintage but you also need the date code to know exactly when it was built. However no 200 uses a V8 bell housing and only some 200's built in 1980 to 83 have the ability to be able to adapt a V8 bell. The 250 six is the only small six that a has the same bell housing pattern as the SBF V8's.

2. Yes it Is the 3.03 trans, 1964 was the first year that Ford used the Top Loader 3.03 3speed behind both the 170 and 200 sixes. The Top Loader was Designed in 1963 for use in the 1964 Ford models, the 3.03 3 & 4 speed Top Loader production was from 1964 to 1973.

3. You can also ID an 8.5 (8 1/2) inch clutch flywheel by counting the number of teeth on the ring gear, they will have 132 teeth.

4. The bell housing used with an 8 1/2 inch clutch will have a 3 bolt starter mounting.

5. All 144 and 170 engines can only use an 8 1/2 inch clutch and bell housing.

6. To ID A 9 inch clutch the flywheel will have 136 ring gear teeth.

7. The bell housing used for a 9 inch clutch flywheel will have a 2 bolt starter mounting.

8. The casting numbers on the bell housing and flywheel may also be some help in determining the true year of the parts.

To me It looks like it will all bolt together but you might have him take a picture of the tin block plate up against both the bell housing and the back of the block to see if all the holes do line up. Good luck
Edited

 

[hoodooman]

thank you very much for taking the time to reply. i appreciate all the info!

 

[drag-200stang]

If possible I would hold out for a late model 9'',dual bolt block, large log engine, and go with a 5 speed. I picked up 3tens going to a 4speed, and better driveablity . I wish I had a 5 speed but they were not avilable at that time. That clutch looks odd.

 

[hoodooman]

If possible I would hold out for a late model 9'',dual bolt block, large log engine, and go with a 5 speed. I picked up 3tens going to a 4speed, and better driveablity . I wish I had a 5 speed but they were not avilable at that time. That clutch looks odd.

Hi, I was curious what your thoughts were about the clutch? What is it that looks odd?

Thanks!

 

[bubba22349]

Yes that is why I suggested checking the ring gear tooth count I really can't tell by that picture of the flywheel and clutch down in the bin. If you could have him take some better pictures with it setting on top of a table or bench top were you could actually see it. One further check on the bell housing differences is that a 3 bolt starter mounting is only used with the 8 1/2 inch clutch flywheel bell housing. Also if the bell has a 2 bolt mounting then that's only used on the 9 inch flywheel bell. The casting numbers of the flywheel and bell housing may be helpful in figuring out the year of theose parts too. My hunch is that this is a compleate engine and trans package that he pulled out of his car, but its still better to be there to see it all in person and verify it. If it's a real good deal then it might be worth taking the trip to check it all out. Good luck

 

[chad]

"...good deal…"
and IS as represented in the pics.
(rather than photos of something not possessed).

 

[hoodooman]

The guy was asking over $500 for the setup. The lowest I could get him to go was $450. I feel with having the zbar, clutch, shifter and everything there it's a decent deal. The engine is missing the exhaust manifold but I can take the one off of my 170.

 

[bubba22349]

Doesn't sound that bad on the price for a compleate running engine & trans package, if it's everthing he says it is. On looking over the pictures once more I believe that it's for sure the 8 1/2 inch bell housing, and that it's also probably the 8 1/2.clutch and flywheel it's just that I can't see it real well in that picture. You will also be able to adapt a T5 (5 speed) to that bell and engine combo too if you wanted too. And that engine would bolt up to your existing C4 trans that's in your car since you have the 170 in it now. As to if you should wait for a duel patern 1966 up block and 9 inch clutch and bell housing it all depends on what other mods that you are planing for your 66 Mustang. A plus though if it's in your budget would be that you can at least have it running once again, driving, and enjoying that Mustang while you hunt for the better parts to upgrade it with. Sometimes when you are there in person with the cash in hand you can bargain for a better price too. Good luck

 

[drag-200stang]

It looks odd at the mounting bolts , could be just the picture. I checked a 9'' flywheel it will clear the small pattern bolts and locating pins but I do not have a small bell housing to try . It may be as he said it is .

 

[George66Falcon]

Dual patterned I6 blocks appeared in 1966, so I don't see how a 3.03 could have possibly been bolted up to a 1965 block without an adapter plate or something, which we don't see in the pictures.. I'd just wait for another later block to come up.

 

[chad]

I can't advise U on a choice but it seems it's all laid out now?

Get running now
or
wait for a better option later
( on other hand - prices are what they are in each individual situation, can't get that nailed down in advance with entire certainty - just broad parameters ).

…the rods for on-the-column shift linkage,
& is that the 'stang or what they call the "maverick motor mounts and towers"?

Good Luck, keep talkin...

 

[Econoline]

Pretty sure my 64 Econoline had a toploader 3.03 bolted to a 170 w/ an 8.5" clutch when I pulled it.

 

[bubba22349]

Pretty sure my 64 Econoline had a toploader 3.03 bolted to a 170 w/ an 8.5" clutch when I pulled it.

That's Exactly right the Top loader 3 and 4 speeds first started showing up in the 1964 Ford models. The 3.03 Top Loaders were designed in 1963 to be used in the 1964 Ford models and the 3 speeds were first used behind both the 170 and 200's sixes in 1964!

 

[SuperKONR]

I've never seen one of those bellhousings before. It's definitely a small pattern for an 8.5" clutch a 3 bolt starter, but it has the wide toploader pattern. Interesting! You do need the bigger bell for a 9 inch clutch. It may clear the flywheel with the small bell but you would likely have starter issues.

 

[drag-200stang]

I run a 3000 hp rated ProMod clutch-less transmission behind my 200 so anything is possible if you are handy. It looks like there is a flat adapter plate mounted to the bell-housing .A casting would have a more rounded corner where they meet.

 

[lavron]

Just curious what happened here if anything, I am wanting to T-5 my '64 Comet and I have a 170 that years ago I put a 3.03 out of Maverick in and stumbled on to a bell that mated the two (no idea what it came out of maybe Econoline) I think I picked the bell up off the ground in the salvage yard (some things are just meant to be :roll: ) it has the 3 bolt starter and it appears to have extra ears in it for an even wider transmission.

I am going to pull the engine and trans out in the near future and can get numbers off of it, I did all this pre-internet so I didn't know it couldn't be done I guess

See Ya,
Mike