Help on Carburetion

Beaus67

Active member
My plans were to use a Weber 32/36 DGEV progressive carburetor. However, I have found that Weber has another option the 38 DGES synchro carb with electric choke that I think is basically a 32/36 where both barrels open at the same time. Does anybody know anything about this carburetor or have an opinion on progressive vs. synchro? Got the bigger head and 2v conversion, would the syncro carb take better advantage of the new setup? :hmmm:
Thanks Bill
 
8) it depends on what you want more, performance or fuel economy. for fuel economy go with the progressive carb, for performance go with the other one.
 
rbohm":3gibeilq said:
8) it depends on what you want more, performance or fuel economy. for fuel economy go with the progressive carb, for performance go with the other one.

X2. 32/36 for fuel economy, 38 for performance.
 
Weber 38 is no better than a 2300 series 350cfm Holley #7448. The 350 is a cleaner and smoother running carb emissions and drive wise than the Weber 32/36 or Holley Weber 5200. The good thing is how compact the Webers are.

I love Webers because they are easier to find down this latitude as Pinto engined cars were best selllers from 1973 to 1983, so a whole buch of wrecked Cortinas, Capris or Ford Sierra 2.0s yield a Weber carb. But its not a better carb than a Holley 2300 as there is a whole industry around them,and its a Ford small and big block carb which can yield far more power. If the Weber 38 was so good, Ford would have wanted a Holley Weber 38 made in the US. The Weber 38 was tested as a step up option for the European Pinto engined RS 2000 Escort, but never made the cut. As with all Webers, the 38 series Webers tended to slurp gas if the fuel pressure wasn't wound back by an expensive regulator. European Fords got a return line to limit fuel pressure to 3 psi tops. The float level is hard to set if you don't follow the 1976-1982 European Ford 3.0 and 2.8 and Renault R20 2.6 Litre V6 set-up instructions. The simultaneous opening means the emulsion tubes, jetting and correctors need to be right on.

If thats done right, the Weber 38 generated up to 125 to 138 hp net with ease in its stock European Renault PRV V6 Capri/Granada 2.8/3.0 installations, but definately no more. The venturis are 29mm on some, 27 mm on others due to a casting change from suplliers, and the smaller ones won't perform as well. The Holley 350cfm has the same 38 mm throttle, but bigger 30 mm venturis, and is a lot more friendly to calibrate. Just knock the squirters and main jets and power valves up or down, and shove some 15 amp copper fuse wire in the Power Valve channel restrictions. 58-63 jets, 6.5 power valve, and don't be affraid to pump the pressure up over 5 psi. I don't personally like high fuel line pressures as I believe in the European Weber return line systems, but they are a foreign idea. We used them on the Weber 34 ADM equiped Falcon and all our Pintoengined Ford since 1973 to 1988, and they help fuel consumption. But so does the Holley 2300 power valve, its recommended jetting is good, and you can get parts anywhere, and float level is a cinch to set.
 
Howdy:

Hey Xctasy- How about some specifics? What is the diameter of the 15 amp fuse wire? What number squirters? How would these specs change if a #7448 were being used on a 250 engine at 5,000 ft elevation? I'm hoping Will (wsa111) will jump in on this thread. He's gone to some very specific specs on jetting, air bleeds and other specs with the benefit of an Innovations A/F meter due to an aftermarket metering plate with changeable restrictions on 500 cfm Holley, on a well tuned 200.

Pay attention Bill (beau).

Adios, David
 
CZLN6":3vtvvbtw said:
Howdy:

Hey Xctasy- How about some specifics? What is the diameter of the 15 amp fuse wire? What number squirters? How would these specs change if a #7448 were being used on a 250 engine at 5,000 ft elevation? I'm hoping Will (wsa111) will jump in on this thread. He's gone to some very specific specs on jetting, air bleeds and other specs with the benefit of an Innovations A/F meter due to an aftermarket metering plate with changeable restrictions on 500 cfm Holley, on a well tuned 200.

Pay attention Bill (beau).

Adios, David

Main jet sizes can vary depending on camshaft, cylinder head & headers.

You can start with 60-62 main jets, & the restriction under the power valve in the .046" to .048" area. Accerator pump close to .031"

Just changing the camshaft can affect the A/F ratio.

Shoot for 14.5-14.7 A/F cruising & 12.8-13.1 WOT A/f ratio.

Fuel pressure in the 4.5 to 6.5# area is perfect.

I use the road race float from Braswell carbs or Bo Laws. It controls the fuel pressure much better than the holley floats.
http://www.braswell.com/products/floats_1.htm

With ethanol added to gasoline i recommend the green accerator pump diaphram which was made for alcohol fuels. Also make sure you keep replacing the accerator umbrella check valve in the pump system. Once the color changes from the original red-orange color to a flesh color thats the time to change.

Holley has done little for upgrades cause fuel injection has been the main focus on their market. Bill
 
Aw CZLN6, man, don't let me confuse the boy.... :hmmm:

Oh, I think it was an E-string or a 1 amp piece of fuse wire takes a 62.5 thou PVCR down to about 54 thou. If Bill suggests 46 thou, then use the brass inserts he describes, or use two 1 amp fuses wound together...tightly.

1 amp fuse wire is 28.7 thou if its copper. Silver is different, and the formulae for wire diameter changes at various amps due to electrical engineering conventions. I had a scrap of paper I've used for the last 3 months to tune my Holley, but I got the core info off the net, then lost the Excell file for 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 and 30 amps in copper, silver and nickel. I'll try and track it down...

For every 2000 feet increase in altitude, you can roughly reduce the jet size by one Holley call size. There is a much more accurate cc/min conversion, which caters for close limit laboratory style calibration and emissions jets in each call size, but again, the file is gone :oops:

No, wait, its here...http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... ewall.html :D

And if you use my cc/min chart from the Jetting for any 2 or 4-bbl Holley, you can use these formulae:-

http://image.hotrod.com/f/15970733+w750 ... uning+.jpg

and

http://image.hotrod.com/f/15970736+w750 ... uning+.jpg

Additional interest:- if you need 93 octane at sea level to run your 11:1 compression Mustang knock free, at 3000 ft, you'll only need 91.5 octane. At 5000 feet, you'll need 90.5. Sadly, there is nowhere with a road on American soil 12000 feet high so you could run 87 octane without knocking...

xctasy":3brwqlfu said:
Some time ago, wsaiii showed how it was done with much more accuracy than I can.

Two power valve channel restrictions for a PN 4412 (and 7448) Holley 2300 series 500 (and 350) CFM are 62.5 thou each. Most PVCR are equal to 8 jet sizes up on a std Holley jet.

Two stock 64 call size jets, plus two 62.5 thou holes, would be a certain amount of total jetting.

If the stock PVCR's should be 53 to 55 thou, then the enough wire must be added to reduce the effective discharge area of two PVCR to 54 thou.

Copper, nickel and iron fuse wire exists in pacakges at stores. If you can track down one piece of 1 amp copper fuse wire, and loop it through the two PVCR holes you'll reduce the total annulus of discharge by two lots of 28.7 thou.

Total PVCR will then be (3.141*(0.0625/2)*(0.0625/2))*2)=0.006134
but less two lots of 28.7 thou diameters (3.141*(0.0287/2)*(0.0287/2))*2)=0.0013, which makes 0.006134-0.0013, or 0.004834.
Total with wsaiii 54 tho PVCR is (3.141*(0.054/2)*(0.054/2))*2)=0.004580

Close enough to get 12.5:1 air fuel
 
Howdy:

Thanks Bill and Xctasy. Great information on tuning in the Holleys. What do you think Beau? Which way are you going to go?

Adios, David
 
For your information, the PVCR on the 7448-350 carb is .0595 not .0625" like the 4412-500 carb has.
So do your math again or install screw in replaceable jets. Bill
 
Man, I think you guys have forgotten that I’m the guy that was nervous about introducing a late model head into the mix. Plus we’re pretty green out here in Oregon so what would I have to do to run that Holly on corn oil a sea level? Was that E string flat wound, nickel wound, custom gauged or cat gut? :lol: Ok just having a little fun, but I do appreciate all the information (a little more than I can digest in one sitting). I think I’m going to go with the Weber 38, my limited research would indicate the loss of economy will be minimal and my local Yoda seem to like Weber carbs. I have some time since I just got the engine back on the stand last night but I already have the Weber adaptor from C.I. so... That big check I wrote makes me even more determined not to screw this up so I will be taking things slow and one step at a time. My son is coming home this weekend (he wants to get his hands dirty) so the push is to get things painted before Saturday. Even paint color has been mulled over and over and over :hmmm:

Bill

newhead.jpg



block.jpg
 
I wouldn't turn it over 5000 with those retainers though, the multi-piece allow for rotation , but at the expense of strength , better to know now then when its together
 
wsa111":xs1umdgh said:
For your information, the PVCR on the 7448-350 carb is .0595 not .0625" like the 4412-500 carb has.
So do your math again or install screw in replaceable jets. Bill
:bang: Fat fingered the calculator again... :oops:


Beaus67":xs1umdgh said:
Man, I think you guys have forgotten that I’m the guy that was nervous about introducing a late model head into the mix. Plus we’re pretty green out here in Oregon so what would I have to do to run that Holly on corn oil a sea level? Was that E string flat wound, nickel wound, custom gauged or cat gut? :lol: Ok just having a little fun

Oh yeah,i forgot about the e-string material variances.

I'd suggest an Invovate a/f gauge rather than metal or animal products...

Looks like you've got things quite under control. Webers are okay if you follow the basics, but I've loved every minute of Bills education here with his special knack. That's why my Mustang toggles between some 32/36 Weber's and some 2300 Holleys. Both produce a fine result.

And nice that your in Oregon. I cleaned two imported TigerCat forestry skidders from there, spent 70 hours removing pine needles. I didn't have to clean the last two Mustangs that were gone over by BioSecurity NZ yesterday.



(the yellow one was ex Oregon and mint for a 45 year old car. The grey Stang GT one was from Cali, while the white Fox Stang is mine, ex Japan if you please)

Your state has got great machinery there, I've seen lots of it.
 
Dean, if he is going with the weber the ball is in your court.

You know the weber better than anyone & can advise them with your knowledge.

The best deal with the holley carb is the inexpensive cost of parts & fast availabilty. Bill
 
FalconSedanDelivery":qsqb10xh said:
I wouldn't turn it over 5000 with those retainers though, the multi-piece allow for rotation , but at the expense of strength , better to know now then when its together
I second that. The stock retainers & springs are junk.

If you put any decent camshaft in your engine make sure you install retainers which are hardened
whether it be 7 degree or stock degree. Make sure you run dual springs or single springs with a damper.
The new beehive springs look great. Will have to check them out. Bill
 
And nice that your in Oregon. I cleaned two imported TigerCat forestry skidders from there, spent 70 hours removing pine needles. I didn't have to clean the last two Mustangs that were gone over by BioSecurity NZ yesterday.


(the yellow one was ex Oregon and mint for a 45 year old car. The grey Stang GT one was from Cali, while the white Fox Stang is mine, ex Japan if you please)

Your state has got great machinery there, I've seen lots of it.

Nice Mustang row :nod: :thumbup:
 
Make sure you run a good air filter to keep the pine needles out of the intake. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
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