so I'm not injection guy but why cant you just use holley's projection 2 barrel kit? They have a closed loop upgrade so even tho cfm rating is a bit over rated for our engines ecu should compensat the air fuel. just seems to be a easy bolt. but thaught i would ask you guys if anyone has tried using one. thanks
holley kit?
- Thread starter wtrmrk
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As long as you are ok with the 2bbl into 1 concept you should be able to buy the holley 2bbl adapter plate to mount the holley tbi (or GM tbi) on your adapter. I did not have much trouble with the early holley ECU on 350 chevs and my 425 caddy. I suspect that there would not be enough range in the adjustments to get it to run on an engine as small as a 170. I could not get one to run on my 500 with the same settings I was using on the 425. It would start, idle, or drive. Never all with the same settings. MS could be setup to work on anything as long as you have the right size injectors. The typical holley one you see cheap used on ebay was the one they called the 670. It came with 2 85 lbhr injectors. I think there were also 52lbhr injecors but I dont know what model they came on, only seen them on ebay. I would look for a GM TBI off of a 4.3 or 5.0, those should be 40-45 lbhr and 43mm bore each which should be the ballpark for a 170. They should be cheap easy to find on 87-95 trucks & suv's. Get a MS from a good place like DIYautotune and you should have a good setup once you get it all figured out. It takes time but when you are done you will understand what you have and be able to work on it yourself and improve it.
sorry i should have said that i was looking for a setup for my new motor its a 200 with a oz250 head so have the two barrel manifold. this is my daily driver and was thinking that upgrading to fuel injection would make it more drivable not to mention that with the o2 sensor i would not have to mess with jetting to try to get air fuel right. but you guys think that a tbi with a ms control will work better than the holley kit that might be the way i go.
I have not really looked close at the new holley kits. I believe they all come with a universal 4bbl mounting plate so you may still have to buy the 2bbl one separately. The current 'digital' ecu's may have the range in them. I see the 950-20s is 'Commander 950 Throttle Body Fuel Injection System 4 Cyl Even Fire 6 Cyl V8 2 bbl 670 cfm Range Up To 275 HP' Looking at the picture it still looks like it comes with a 4bbl plate but who knows that may not be the real picture. I see that set is around $1300. If it is plug and play it may be worth it but if its not thats a lot of money vs. a junkyard GM and a MS. I would think a GM/MS could be done for around $500.
I have real trouble believing there is any system that you can just hook up, start the car, drive, and it magically calibrates itself. The air/fuel map part is pretty easy to figure out. What is a pain with a system like MS is getting the injector characteristics and such figured out. With a package system like the holley you would hope that there is just an option in the software where you pick the throttle body you have off a list and its done. Then you have some other number you adjust till it starts and runs. AFter that you do some tweaking and you are there. One thing people dont realize is missfires screw up 02 readings. I found the best way to get the base tune was to ignore the 02 and just go by ear. Get it to idle good. Get it to rev well. You can then take it for an easy ride down a quiet street, just tweak things till it seems to run well. At that point you will be in the ballpark and should be getting good 02 readings and begin to start to dial things in. This is where things like timing are going to come in so its nice if you also have that under computer control. MS can do that, not sure about the holley. MS also has some great logging options, not sure about holley.
Tip #2 if you are dealing with a new motor, get it started and at least through your cam break in with a known good carb. Other option would be to take it to a dyno shop and have them break it in. Your first time with an efi system is going to be hard on a new engine so you dont want to risk it any further than you have to. If your old engine is still running put the EFI on there with an adapter plate. You will at least be familiar with the system and the settings should be close enough to get a medium 200 running.
I have real trouble believing there is any system that you can just hook up, start the car, drive, and it magically calibrates itself. The air/fuel map part is pretty easy to figure out. What is a pain with a system like MS is getting the injector characteristics and such figured out. With a package system like the holley you would hope that there is just an option in the software where you pick the throttle body you have off a list and its done. Then you have some other number you adjust till it starts and runs. AFter that you do some tweaking and you are there. One thing people dont realize is missfires screw up 02 readings. I found the best way to get the base tune was to ignore the 02 and just go by ear. Get it to idle good. Get it to rev well. You can then take it for an easy ride down a quiet street, just tweak things till it seems to run well. At that point you will be in the ballpark and should be getting good 02 readings and begin to start to dial things in. This is where things like timing are going to come in so its nice if you also have that under computer control. MS can do that, not sure about the holley. MS also has some great logging options, not sure about holley.
Tip #2 if you are dealing with a new motor, get it started and at least through your cam break in with a known good carb. Other option would be to take it to a dyno shop and have them break it in. Your first time with an efi system is going to be hard on a new engine so you dont want to risk it any further than you have to. If your old engine is still running put the EFI on there with an adapter plate. You will at least be familiar with the system and the settings should be close enough to get a medium 200 running.
thanks for the advice might go the ms route. holley does have a 400 cfm kit also might be a better throttle body for a six. well write a post when i get closer. probally just round up parts this winter as i don't have a garage and working in the driveway in freezing weather isn't my thing if I can help it. so spring time well be the next modifacation i make. till then thanks
Mounting should be fairly easy since you dont have to deal with the 2 into one hole issue. Throttle linkage may be a little easier since its closer to what was stock. Only concern is the analogs did not tend to have a lot of range in them. You may be close enough that you can just mess with fuel pressure and TPS. If I had one laying around I would try it. If it did not work I would hook a MS up to it.
I have built many megasquirt boxes. My Falcon (250ci) has had one for over 3 years now with no trouble. It even has EDIS (no dissy) and it controls the fans, etc.
Now, as for ease of setting up.... A friend of mine just put a 1UZ (Toyota V8) in his Hilux. The current Megatune software has a VE table predicter - we guessed the HP and Ft-lb numbers and out popped a VE table that was pretty close - close enough for us to easily start and run the vehicle up and down the street.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't be scared of setting it all up - you'll get it running quick enough. The polishing is what takes the time.
Now, as for ease of setting up.... A friend of mine just put a 1UZ (Toyota V8) in his Hilux. The current Megatune software has a VE table predicter - we guessed the HP and Ft-lb numbers and out popped a VE table that was pretty close - close enough for us to easily start and run the vehicle up and down the street.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't be scared of setting it all up - you'll get it running quick enough. The polishing is what takes the time.
69Falcon":1z0gjezp said:wagon":1z0gjezp said:
That's the part that has kept me from going with fuel injection so far. My Falcon is my daily driver, so it has to be able to make the trek to work every day.
If you get it running on a weekend it gives you enough time to have it going well enough to get you around. You can also do a bit of tuning every day when you drive it... you will notice subtle changes and improvements.
Hi fordconvert.Check out some of the newer F.A.S.T.(R)systems.Supposedly,they will do exactly what the other fellow was talking about.Input the appx HP,torque,CID,and a few other items with a hand held programmer that comes with the unit,and drive the vehicle.
It learns your driving style and programs itself accordingly.
Or so F.A.S.T.(R)claims.
There was an article on that particular unit about 2 or 3 months ago in HotRod(R) magazine.
Leo
SoCar72
Well-known member
Check out the PowerJection III system from Professional Products. It may be the same system as the Retrotekspeed mentioned earlier. I know Pro Products sells through Retrotek. Summit carries it as well.
I've been eyeballing the system for a while now. I read an article on its install in Mustang and Fords magazine a couple of years ago. The article indicated a simple install, basically like a carb swap (4150 style flange to fit most any 4bbl intake) while adding an electric fuel pump, regulator and return line, and a handful of electrical connections and a clamp on O2 bung with sensor. The article, as well as online videos, describe the initial break-in as letting it idle to temperature with a few slow rpm pulls in neutral, then about a half hour drive around with various accelerations and stops of increasing demand to establish the tune. Further tweaking, if desired, can be done via laptop computer across a few dozen points of tune. There are also some YouTube videos of costumer installs.
I've found nothing negative about this kit, though I keep waiting for some bad press. It seems to be the most versatile, tunable, and elegant "box" kit on the market. It even looks like a double pumper. It's designed for V8's with a 750cfm flow capacity, but has been successfully run V6's as well (displacements were not listed). I would think it should run just fine on our L6's since the fuel discharge is independent of vacuum signal. Supposedly, it's even good to handle 2.5bar of blow-through boost as well as nitrous.
Anybody tried one of these?
I've been eyeballing the system for a while now. I read an article on its install in Mustang and Fords magazine a couple of years ago. The article indicated a simple install, basically like a carb swap (4150 style flange to fit most any 4bbl intake) while adding an electric fuel pump, regulator and return line, and a handful of electrical connections and a clamp on O2 bung with sensor. The article, as well as online videos, describe the initial break-in as letting it idle to temperature with a few slow rpm pulls in neutral, then about a half hour drive around with various accelerations and stops of increasing demand to establish the tune. Further tweaking, if desired, can be done via laptop computer across a few dozen points of tune. There are also some YouTube videos of costumer installs.
I've found nothing negative about this kit, though I keep waiting for some bad press. It seems to be the most versatile, tunable, and elegant "box" kit on the market. It even looks like a double pumper. It's designed for V8's with a 750cfm flow capacity, but has been successfully run V6's as well (displacements were not listed). I would think it should run just fine on our L6's since the fuel discharge is independent of vacuum signal. Supposedly, it's even good to handle 2.5bar of blow-through boost as well as nitrous.
Anybody tried one of these?
The Powerjection unit is nicely packaged, but it lacks the ability to control ignition events. It's a fuel-only system.
Looks like it would work well on a lot of applications.
Looks like it would work well on a lot of applications.
When looking at downsizing a system you have 2 issues. First is the drivability. Usually the computer can handle keeping the AFR correctly but you end up with too much throttle response. I have a 2bbl on a 500" motor and I had that problem. I was able to solve it by modifying the throttle linkage but this was a 650cfm system on a larger than average motor. I doubt it would be that easy going down to a 200. The second issue is getting the injectors to dial back how much fuel they dump the injectors only have so much range in them. Think of a garden hose vs. a fire hose with a valve on it. You open both valves for 1/100 of a second which one are you still going to get a lot of fuel from? The TBI style of injectors really have issues with how little fuel they can dump. These are the ones that are larger and mounted in a pod above the throttle bores. They usually run around 15psi. On the GM's going from the 305 to the 350 required different injectors, not because of full load because of idle. Apparently in recent years there has been some advancement in both the size and control of the bosh style multiport injectors and that appears to be the style many of the newer TBI units use.
I've been recently inpressed with the F.A.S.T. system, I went to a shop and the guy stated he spent 4 hours with a 4bbl holley carb and got 511hp and 623tq off a BBC, hooked up the fast system and on the 3rd pull on the dyno it got 532hp and 647tq, granted setup time I bet was more than 4hrs but if it can "dial itself in" it would seem to be the best way for a daily driver like mine.
I've been thinking if I got the 400cfm from summit with the fast computer control and maybe a retrotek Returnless Fuel System Kit you would get something that bolts in and dials itself to peak performance without the need to run a return fuel line.
I don't know what would be a bigger headache... return fuel line system or the Returnless Fuel System Kit or if it would even work with the Fast system...???
what do you guy's think?
I've been thinking if I got the 400cfm from summit with the fast computer control and maybe a retrotek Returnless Fuel System Kit you would get something that bolts in and dials itself to peak performance without the need to run a return fuel line.
I don't know what would be a bigger headache... return fuel line system or the Returnless Fuel System Kit or if it would even work with the Fast system...???
what do you guy's think?
