How do I identify an XF T5 box and will it fit XW 221 ?

D

Danielson

Well-known member
I have found a 5 speed gearbox out of unleaded XF ghia it should be a T5 but I want to make sure. I can't remember how to identify them. From memory one has an alloy gearbox housing and the not so good XE has a steel cast iron housing or is it the other way around ? :roll:
Also what sort of problems will I encounter when fitting to an XW ? XW uses hydraulic clutch XF uses cable so what do I do here ? :? I should mention I will have a single rail 4 speed and a XY 3 speed G boxes available. Will the bellhousings interchange ?
Thanks Daniel :wink:
 
G'day.

XF T5 boxes have alloy boxes around them, with ribs in the casing, while the older Borg-Warner boxes have iron cases. Crossflow boxes fit non-crossflow bellhousings.

Hope that helps!
 
Thanks for the info.
It turns out to be the earlier 5 speed not the T5 as I hoped. How bad are the early 5 speed boxes ? I had one in an XF ute for about 2 years with no problems but I hear a lot that they are weak and only came out behind the 3.3 litre motors ... Are the problems only evident when doing burnouts etc or are they just plain crappy. Looking at $200 for a complete conversion includes everything as well as new clutch and pressure plate, thrust bearing and spigot bush.. Should I risk it ? :?
Regards Daniel
 
Use it, but always carry a spare one in your ute tray.

Your ute will be about 1300 kilos, and about 240 newtons is what Id expect from a 3.6, so its just at the point of letting go.


As long as you use the right grade oil, and keep a spare box and a spare nylon gearlever, you should be okay. The main problem is it is a small, light weight Borg Warner gearbox patterned of the little Cortina 2.0 4-speed, and has as much strength as a wet cleanex under burnout conditions. In Europe, the German made 5-speed variant, the N9, could hack about 278 Nm behind a warmed up Capri 2.8.

It was Aussie designed as a 3.65, 2.14, 1.37, 1.00, 0.86 ratio box for 1977 Chrylser Sigmas, 200B's, 1982 on RWD Coronas and late 1981 Commodore 4's.The first 2.6 Sigmas, with 192 Nm of torque, got the gearbox. Lots of EH and FJ Holden guys put them behind there 186 and 202's, but they never lasted long under the abuse a hot six could meter out.

The 1.9, 2.0 and 2.6 engines the gearbox was orginally designed for had between 135 and 192 Newton meters of torgue in really light cars (1080 to 1195 kilos). There are plenty of these 5 slotes out there, althoug the extension housings vary. Torque capacity for the early wide ratio versions was a 173 (2.85 litre) Holden engine, which had 185 Newton meters of torque, and weighed in at 1206 to 1275 kilos in a VH SL/X. The Sigma was about 1144 kilos and could handle its 192 Nm with ease.

The 1982 Ford version was a close ratio variant (3.22, 1.94,1.26,1.00,0.79), which had the best ratios ever. Holden picked it up for the VK Commodore 2-bbl 3.3, and it was able to cope with a 3.3 engine stock.

The final limit was established as 240 Newton meters in a 1320 pound Falcon XE sedan, or 1400 pound wagon. When the Commodore EI 3.3 came out with 264 Newton meters of torque and 1365 kilos, Holden didn't use the BW 5-speed because it was already at breaking point with the carby 3.3.
 
I just picked up mine tonight (flimsy version). Photos in a few days. Looks like it may have an interesting crossmember.
 
Wow Thanks that sure is detailed . i have just purchased a T5 off ebay, which I hope is good . I may purchase the older 5 speed just for the clutch and other bits and move on the box.
Cheers Dan :)
 
What bits would you want off the earlier 5-speed? The bellhousings don't interchange.
 
Notr sure what bits if any? I Would most likely sell box complete with bellhousing and tailshaft etc just need to wait to I get to the installation and make certain I have the parts I need. Are the later model clutches compatable with early flywheels or do I need to change the flywheel as well, that is if they interchange? . :?
 
A friend texted me to say that precrossflow had a different mass and offset to crossflow in the flywheels. I am yet to check that.

Haven't worked out what to do with my flimsy 5-speed either! :lol:
 
Sure - if you pay postage! :lol:

Daniel - I test-fitted a PBR clutch cover between both the 221 flywheel and the aluminium bell 5-speed flywheel; same fit no worries. Didn't have a 250 crossflow flywheel off anyhting else to confirm, though.
 
At the moment I am in the midst of putting a pre x-flow 250 2v and a T5 into my XW sedan, so I may be able to enlighten you as to the trauma you will face :shock: ... having already chucked in a ZJ 'lane 8 3/4 disc brake LSD... I got an aluminium Dellow conversion bellhousing (to allow me to keep the hydraulic clutch and not worry about crapulent cable clutches *shudders at thought of cable clutch dramas*) and brand new flywheel, clutch plate and pressure plate at the Toowoomba swap for $150.00 ( the bellhousing alone goes for over $300 from Dellow). The gearbox came from an 87 XF spac wagon. The motor had a HEAVY duty clutch and flywheel which I decided I'd pilfer and it fitted straight up to my 250. 221's have a different stud pattern though and flywheels aren't interchangeable. I have also had to rebuild the gearbox crossmember to accept the box as the mounting is approximately 60mm further back than the standard boxes (bw auto, 3 spd man, single rail, Toploader C4 etc) I can show you what I've done if you really want to see, but basically you have to get 8mm plate of 150mm X 130mm and weld on top of the crossmemberwhere the gearbox would usually mount on, then brace with 2 triangular supports from the back and make sure you fill the two bolt holes in the crossmember with weld to strengthen. Then there's the matter of the tailshaft. I have an XF tailshaft for the old borgwarner 5 speeds that is about 60 mm shorter than my XW shaft and I HOPE that this will be enough to get away without having my XW shaft shortened as.. yet again the box is about 60mm longer than the standerd boxes. (another interesting point.. the old BW 5 spds have different tailshaft inputs than ALL other boxes). With any luck I should have the motor and box in tomorrow after I cut a hole in the floor and drill the holes in the crossmember plate. Then I just have to make a new accelerator linkage for the XE weber I am using on the 2v head...none of this cable accelerator crap for me!
 
Hey 2502vxw Thanks for the info here and Please keep me posted as to any dramas. Hopefully when I go to fit the T5 I can have all the bugs ironed out so will be straight forward.... :)
I found the same problem when fitting the old BW 5 speed to my XF ute I had it all done and went to fit the tailshaft and ooohhhh nooo :o . I was lucky to get one here in Coffs.. if i had known prior i would have grabbed it along with rest of the conversion..
It was mentioned earlier in this post that the T5s bolt up to the single rail box, I hope I have read this right as that is my plan.. Do the early clutch plates fit the T5 spline or are they different ?
Regards Daniel
P.S Just finished fitting up my 2.5 exhaust system 11:15 PM and it leaks like a siv :oops: Off to the exhaust place on Monday for a proper job..
 
I am not entirely sure on the clutch plate splines.... I believe that they are the same, but am not 100% sure on that. errr, the T5 will *probably* bolt up to the single rail/toploader belhousing, but it's stud pattern is definately different and as such, you'll have to drill all new holes. While the toploader and single rail share one hole in common (I converted a toploader housing to suit a single rail that I put into my XW ute years ago) I think that the T5 has a completely different stud pattern. Dellow and Castlemaine rodshop offer a universal adapter bellhousing that can cater for all 3 gearboxes, but there are 3 different orientations for mounting bolts. The T5 has a far wider spread than either the toploader or single rail, so you may be able to adapt the housing of either to suit it.. but maybe not. I was going to adapt my T5's cable clutch bellhousing to suit the hydraulic setup. Because the opening was on the left side like the old hydraulic systems I was just going to add a pivot block in the same position as the old 3 speed manual bellhousing and use the old throwout fork. But seeing as I got the adapter housing for such a reasonable price I thought. why bother stufing around. In regards to your exhuast... I think that'll be okay when it's all sorted.... I am seriously thinking of going something a bit different though.... I want a twin 2 inch system, just can't decide whether to have one exhaust exiting each side at the rear or join em and have both exiting from the right side.... I think it's justified with my motor (250, 10 thou under big ends, 20 thou over XF unleaded pistons, Crow cam part No 2666, 2v head with XE weber) Should give the olde beast a bit of an improvement over the original 221, BW35 and 3.5:1 diff. it used to have drum brakes all round and now has disc all round... :D
 
I don't know who told you the T-5 bolts to the single rail box.

Later (XF era) bellhousings are set up to be drilled for either 3,4, or 5 speed boxes. Earlier ones you risk drilling into space, particularly on the lower two holes. The retainer flange OD at the T-5s front may be different IIRC, as well.

Have a look at my snapshots, I have others I could post but wanted to avoid confusing the issue!

Regards, Adam.
 
this may help you.
some pix of my T5 + bellhousing

the clutch cable for it is a XF Series 2 with Screw Type Adjuster.
thats what i used on my car.
T5-10.jpg


T5-06.jpg


and the gearbox

T5-14.jpg


this shows the bolt pattern of the T5
engine-install2.jpg
 
Addo The first reply I had in this post states..

XF T5 boxes have alloy boxes around them, with ribs in the casing, while the older Borg-Warner boxes have iron cases. Crossflow boxes fit non-crossflow bellhousings.
Going by this I presumed the T5 box would fit the single rail or 3 speed bellhousing. It sounds like I have mods to do to the crossmemer though.
Cheers Daniel
Click to expand...
 
You may have to ream the centre bore for the bearing retainer. Lower two bolt holes will be really close to falling off the milled flat surface. I think the T-5 bell is about 3/16" deeper than other bells (Toploader and 3/4 speed).

The point being made in the piece you quoted, is of general interchange between gearboxes, not back-compatibility of bellhousings. BW just cast the easiest fit (most versatile blank casting) for each era. It's why the big ID mark is painted on them, so they could be picked from a stack of apparently similar parts. The crossflow timescale included the last of the Toploaders, as well as single rails and three speeds carried over from the '60s and '70s.

When the research is all done, we can make it up as a flowchart with pictures. That can lead people to either a direct fit bellhousing or the easiest one to mod.
 
Yeah, the back flat section on the T5 box is HUGE by comparison to either 3 speed BW's or even Toploader/single rails. I was thinking of boring out the centre of my old 3 speed bellhousing to use with my T5, but it is just too much of a stretch. I think the bottom right?? hole would be off in the air, but the other three kinda fit. The best bet would be to add a pivot block to the cable clutch housing in the same location as the one in the 3 speed housing for the throw out fork to mount on and get someone to weld some nuts onto the housing where the slave cylinder is to mount becaue, whilst the rear of the housings are different, the front sections are the same and common points can be used to make the necessary changes ... you just have to do a lot of careful measuring to get it setup right. That is what I was also contemplating before aI stumbled across the Dellow adapter housing.
 
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