How to set up for a FUTURE turbo build

[blue beast]

Hey guys, im planning on just getting my 200 to run good before putting it in my Mustang, for reference its a 1980. I ran a compression test and the front and rear cylinders are getting bout 60, other are all around 100, so i figured i'd get it rebuilt now before it goes into my car...now from what i heard you cant run a turbo on regular cast pistons for that long, so that means for a turbo i'll need to get forged correct? If i get it rebuilt with that now how will that change how it currently runs? Basically i dont want to have to rebuild it twice, so what do you guys think i should do?

 

[Anlushac11]

Hey guys, im planning on just getting my 200 to run good before putting it in my Mustang, for reference its a 1980. I ran a compression test and the front and rear cylinders are getting bout 60, other are all around 100, so i figured i'd get it rebuilt now before it goes into my car...now from what i heard you cant run a turbo on regular cast pistons for that long, so that means for a turbo i'll need to get forged correct? If i get it rebuilt with that now how will that change how it currently runs? Basically i dont want to have to rebuild it twice, so what do you guys think i should do?

Build the motor exactly how you want to run it with the turbo. The low compression used by turbo motors will run anything at the pumps. The forged pistons will last longer than cast pistons but will be a little noisier at start up. Would not be a bad idea either to see about getting Dry Film Lubricant coating on the pistons skirts. That will reduce friction and help quiet them down a bit. Some people dont notice forged pistons rattling so its up to you.

Build it now as you would for a turbo then slap the turbo on it when your ready. It will also be important to rebuild the head with quality parts as well.

I am about 8/10 done with my turbo shortblock and I will list what I have done and why.

Block: Standard cleanup, bored .030" over and honed. Go with the minimum amount of overbore needed to remove ridges and clean up cylinders. Thicker cylinders contribute to structural integrity which is needed with a turbo. I am using ARP main studs and head studs. Studs provide better clamping force and ARP bolts are as good as you can get. I also had my block O-ringed because I am running a copper head gasket to make my head gasket blow proof.

If you are running lower compression say 12 lbs or less just use a high quality head gasket. I want to run higher boost and also want the extra insurance of O-rings, copper head gasket, and ARP head studs.

Crank: ground 10/10. Again remove only whats needed. I will be running Clevite 77 main and rod bearings. High quality tri metal main and rod bearings will wear longer and will still perform under the pressures of a turbo engine.

Rods: In that year your rods can be cast iron, cast steel, or nodular iron. The best factory rods are forged steel rods. Forged rods were used through 1972. I bought a set of 170 rods off Ebay that are forged and they have the correct length. I am equipping my rods with ARP rod bolts. The factory rod bolts have always been the weak link on the factory rods and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Cam: I am using the Classic Inlines 272deg dur and .450" lift cam with 110deg centers. What cam you will choose will depend on what transmission you will run and what kind of head work and fuel system you run. I am also running the Classic Inlines double roller timing chain since the stock factory chain and gears have been known to break.

Pistons: Linc 200 was able to make almost 300hp with a stock 200 inline six and a T04 turbo. Linc was also running 100 octane aviation gas and still wound up cooking a piston. With a turbo engine forged pistons are the only way to go. Neither cast pistons or Hypereutectic pistons can handle the stress and heat of a turbo. Forged pistons are also more forgiving in lean fuel burning conditions or if detonation or pre ignition occurs. Ordered mine from Classic Inlines. I ordered flat top pistons due to the thick copper head gasket I will be running.

You need to figure out what your deck height will be, what combustion chamber you will have, what thickness of head gasket you will run and then decide what compression ratio you need. Decide if you need dished or flat top pistons.

Once you get all the figures you can play with them here: http://falconperformance.sundog.net/compcalculator.asp

Rings: I am going with Hastings chrome rings as I wanted a heavy duty ring that can survive detonation. Knowing my luck I want all the extra insurance I can get and as far as luck is concerned I like stacking the deck in my favor.

Oil Pump: No one makes a high performance or high volume oil pump and to be honest you dont want or need one with a turbo. Just gasket match the opening and make sure it operates smoothly.

After all parts are together take everything to your machinist and have it balanced. Very important you balance any engine statically and dynamically to reduce harmonic vibrations. You will also need to take in your harmonic balancer and flywheel or flexplate and torque converter to get it balanced.

Static balanced they weigh all the parts and machine on them till all the parts weigh the same. Dynamically balanced is like a giant tire balancing machine they throw your crank with the balancer and flywheel on. They then bolt on weights to simulate the exact weight of the pistons and spin the crank assembly. Then the machine tells the guy where to remove weight or add weight and how much.

Ignition: I have a 2.3L OHC distributor modified with a six cylinder reluctor. I still need to pull teh roll pin and remove old distributor gear and drill new pin for new 200 gear location.

 

[blue beast]

wow...ok, who can tell me the most basic settup using most of what i currently have? i have to admit, i've been reading up on this and im still lost....i need a major crutch for all of this...plans are as figured so far, a header, 6 into one, a 250 2 barrel carb onto of the classic inline intake, and hopefully if i can either their basic alum head or the oz head...how much would a machine shop charge for all of this?

 

[Asa]

wow...ok, who can tell me the most basic settup using most of what i currently have? i have to admit, i've been reading up on this and im still lost....i need a major crutch for all of this...plans are as figured so far, a header, 6 into one, a 250 2 barrel carb onto of the classic inline intake, and hopefully if i can either their basic alum head or the oz head...how much would a machine shop charge for all of this?

1) if you're turbo-ing, you are pretty much gonna be wasting your money on a header unless you plan to resell it later
2) you have to have the Aluminum head or an Oz head to use the intake as it won't bolt onto a stock head

what makes you say you're lost? what in particular don't you get?
if you don't ask questions, you won't ever get any answers and you'll stay lost


edit: Anlushac didn't mention the Ignition system, at the least you're going to want to upgrade to something with a hotter spark (DUI, DSII, etc) if you want to get crazy with it you can work on setting up a knock sensor for ignition retardation in the event of detonation, or other neat stuff

 

[Anlushac11]

Duraspark II or the Classic Inlines DUI distributor would be easiest to install. Factory DS II would be much cheaper but the DUI offers best performance.

I will be looking for computer controlled ignition and timing so I am running a TFI ignition.

 

[blue beast]

i was aware of the aftermarket stock head mismatch, so thats why that ones kinda in a pair, i have my stock 350? i think, off my 82 Mustang, so i was gonna try using that...what im mainly confused bout is all the internal things, like which pistons to go with, rings, crank etc ect. Like i dont know much bout any of it, so how do i go about selected what to use? And as for the exhaust it would probably end up a resale thing, i just couldnt imagine after replacing the head and intake trying to run that thing for a season when pushing it through that meader it has now...

 

[Anlushac11]

i was aware of the aftermarket stock head mismatch, so thats why that ones kinda in a pair, i have my stock 350? i think, off my 82 Mustang, so i was gonna try using that.

Not sure what you mean by mismatch, are you referring to the Classic Inlines intake doesn't quite match up to the OZ-250 head so you have to do some grinding? Its no different than doing port matching.

350? as in 350cfm Holley 2bbl? You can run a carb but make sure you read up on carb modifications like Nitrophyl floats, drilling power valve, boost referenced fuel pump, etc.

..what im mainly confused bout is all the internal things, like which pistons to go with, rings, crank etc ect. Like i dont know much bout any of it, so how do i go about selected what to use?

Cast pistons are very unforgiving of stress like pre ignition or detonation. Hypereutectic pistons are not any better in this situation and are actually more brittle.

IMHO you need forged pistons with a turbo. Mike at Classic Inlines sells them. You need to find out if you want dished or flat top. http://www.classicinlines.com/products.asp?cat=27

Just remember the delivery time of 6-8 weeks for pistons. They are custom made per order. I ordered mine middle of April.

As for rings make a thread and ask what people recommend. For a street motor running low boost (less than 10lbs) stock cast iron or moly rings will work fine.


There are no choices on crank. Its the stock one or have a custom billet steel crank cut (+/- $2500 )

I highly recommend Clevite 77 main and rod bearings since the tri metal bearings handle stress and wear much better.

As mentioned above its a good idea to get rotating assembly balanced.

And as for the exhaust it would probably end up a resale thing, i just couldnt imagine after replacing the head and intake trying to run that thing for a season when pushing it through that meader it has now...

No one makes a turbo manifold for our inline six so its a do it yourself project.

If your header flange is 3/8" thick or better you can cut off the tubes and weld schedule 40 tubing to the stubs and flange to make your own turbo manifold.

I am looking at these two places for materials

http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/

http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/thp.html

IMHO get it TIG welded as some people have had problems with the manifold warping from stick or MIG welding. TIG produces a lot less heat.

It probably would not hurt to have the header flange bolted down to a piece of stock to simulate it being bolted to the head, kinda like how a torque plate works.

Other option is to find a stock cast iron manifold and get a J-pipe made to route turbo to location you want and weld a turbo flange on. Check Linc 200's thread at top of page for some pics of his J-pipe setup in a Fox Mustang. What I plan to do is get all the parts and materials, test fit everything together and then take it to a local welder who can TIG and pay him to weld it all together.

 

[blue beast]

no i meant as the mis match how the after market intake wont bolt up to the stock head, i have been doing some reading. I also knew about the turbo manifold, i was refferring on what to use in the mean time before i could get the turbo (and make a turbo manifold) I now know about forged pistons, and what types of rings to use, what about with the dished or flat top? if im running it basically stock, i dont need dished correct? when would i need to get dished pistons? If i go with bigger valves?

So best bet would be to actually get one of the kits on classicinlines with the pistons and bearings and such after i take it to a shop to get cleaned up? so thats what 1300 for one of them?

then get a head, which is 1000 for an oz one...which if basically the cheapest i could get correct?

The the intake for 300..... 2600 plus shop charges....hmm, being different is way more expensive than i first thought!?

 

[Anlushac11]

no i meant as the mis match how the after market intake wont bolt up to the stock head, i have been doing some reading.

The Classic Inlines intake is designed to fit the Classic Inlines aluminum head. The Alumium head has raised intake ports. The CI intake will bolt onto a Oz-250 head but you need to grind on the ports to do some port matching. Its not a perfect fit but it is a improvement over stock.

I also knew about the turbo manifold, i was refferring on what to use in the mean time before i could get the turbo (and make a turbo manifold) I now know about forged pistons, and what types of rings to use, what about with the dished or flat top? if im running it basically stock, i dont need dished correct? when would i need to get dished pistons? If i go with bigger valves?

You get pistons "flycut" to cut clearance for valves if your running that high of lift. The dish in the piston is there to lower the compression ratio.

Typically in a turbo motor a compression ratio of about 8.0:1 or 8.5:1 is best. IIRC my motor should be about 8.2:1 when done.

If your running a regular head gasket with a un compressed thickness of less than .050" then I would go dished. I went flat tops because I am running the copper head gasket, it does not compress.

So best bet would be to actually get one of the kits on classicinlines with the pistons and bearings and such after i take it to a shop to get cleaned up? so thats what 1300 for one of them?

then get a head, which is 1000 for an oz one...which if basically the cheapest i could get correct?

The the intake for 300..... 2600 plus shop charges....hmm, being different is way more expensive than i first thought!?

The complete kit would be best. It makes sure you have everything at once instead of piecing it together. its a PITA to do it piece by piece like Im doing.

If your going to pop $1000 for a Aussie head bite the bullet and get the $1350 bare Classic Inlines head. It flows much better out of the box and ported and polished nothing else comes close. The machine shop your going to use can finish it. It comes with valves but IIRC no springs, locks, retainers, etc.


I feel your pocketbooks pain. Im trying to build a turbo motor too and I dont have the money to get the Aluminum head on top of which hours have been cut back at work so now Im selling off other parts and spare wheels to try and get money to finish short block. Im still progressing but at a crawl now.

Half, no most of the fun is waxing a overconfident import or Brand X car and they think you have a V8. Its also fun when you pop the hood and see the confusion when they dont see a V8 under the hood.

 

[Funky Cricket]

Melling used to make a higher volume replacement pump for the 170/200. I had one on my capri. I don't have part number any more, but on a street motor it may be too much pump, my oil pressures were always on a bit on the high side, but even after I spun 2 bearings I was running over 35 lbs at idle.

Otherwise, all good advice. The forged pistons are good, but if you don't plan on running to high a pressure you can get away with them for a bit.

edit: I did a quick google with no luck. I was working at melling at the time and got it and my cam out of the race catalog super cheap. Sorry I can find more info.

 

[blue beast]

sorry to say but i figured the best way to do this project is to take my time, im picking up a 2.3 cheap that will fill the void in the meantime, but i AM going to build that 6 for turbo, it just might take awhile i guess, lol.

 

[Anlushac11]

It has taken me years to get to the point where I can say my shortblock is almost finished.

Just keep at it and also do any suspension mods so car is ready when you are.

Good Luck!