If there was a project engine...

80Stang

Well-known member
...that had a goal to serve as high powered, yet streetable and still raceable and respectable enough to show tail lights to most of its big sisters, would it be a 200 or 250 based?

Talking about a powerplant that would make +300hp with an alu head & FI & charger and would still impress with 20+ mpg. Don't reply first with "no go"...

Personally I'd prefer a 200 due to better installability to lower hooded bodies.
 
i think i remember reading that once you start getting into all out power, FI and such, it doesn't matter which you start out with because they end up balancing out in the end

possible that i'm wrong though
 
Ouch. Need to refine this a little bit:

Of course if it is an EFI & charged the hood clearance won't be a problem, prolly. Points for a 250.

200 does not require hard gimmicks to get registered for street use. Points for a 200.

Maybe I should change the question more like: is it still possible with a 200, if two more parameters are added: reliable, "affordable"?
 
250 Crossflow. It'll give you 11.8 quarter miles (proven recently; see Aussie Sixes) and still be quite driveable. With mechanical skills of your own, build cost of a turbo would come in around EUR3600 with shipping.
 
I'm with Adam. A turbo EFI alloy head 250 crossflow will satisfy your requirements. See George's turbo Cortina video for evidence.
 
Hmmm, didn't raise the ambition that I assumed.

This is in Hardcore section because I think it is pretty demanding combination of specs there. I chose to think about the foundation of an engine first; the block. I would lead this brainstorming towards using a 200 bottom end, due to ease in registration, weight and block availability (&price, which comes down due to good availability).

Let's drop the 200 only if we end up with major loss on any of the specs.

On basis of that let's add more steam:
- would there be needed anything more to the bottom end than standard good quality blue printing? Like "Insane Quality", best available quality in tolerances/clearances etc?
- will the std con rods stand 300+ hp?
- will cast pistons stand the hp?

These are mainly reliability and affordability issues. If I look forward to power adders I see three possible configurations: one bigger turbo, two smaller turbos, or a charger like Eaton. Need to think about issues above plus ease of building such a solution w/intercooler(s). Need to think if the cast pistons will do with any of these solutions, or are we headed to forged stuff right away. Poweradderwise, I'm into Eaton more than turbos.
 
Greed will be your downfall, young man.

(And me eveying you will be mine!)

A few facts. In Germany, Algeria and, Um, Findland, you are not allowed to alter the basic spec of the car. Or the TUV, Politzi, or whatever tell you to put five on the fender, and spreadegle.

David Vizard was a champion of devising cheater engines. In the old days, he could grab a stock 1000, or 1100 cc Mini engine, and, using offset bores and Hillman Imp/Sunbeam Stilleto pistons, could bore it out to 1251 cc. Thats a 14 to 25 % torque boost with no other alterations. Or the German spec Mini Clubman, which only had 52 hp, could be turned into a 116 hp engine via use of the stock Metro LCB exhast, HIF7 carb, special scatter grind cam, reworked head and yes Officer, it was all stock (well, looked it, anyway!). A 123% performance boost!

In a similar way, it is easy to do that with the Ford six. Already, your cooking engine is 114 hp, up 30% from the stock 88 hp they came out with. A 123% performance boost is like going from 88 to 196 hp.

That has been done in Australia on a 1966 200 engine. Early small port head with just a 500 Holley and one Nitrous Oxide Systems fogger nozzle. In a 1963 Falcon, it did 13.6 second quarters.

If you want to do that on gasoline only, then it'll flat -line at about 165 hp. Mustang Geezer, when his is running right, may get close to that. Yeah, the log is a dog, but it can be made to bark if you understand how to gas flow the bends from the carb. Apparently, like the little A-series Mini engines, the intense heating of the cast iron intake manifold creats the need for an octane rating 8 RON numbers higher to avoid detonation. A 2v and log may have 9:1 compression, but the 2V will get away with 83 octane, while the log will need 91, all else being equal.

Jack Collins posted some Desktop Dyno runs, and it confirmed the flow restriction form what is, effectively, two very sharp, short radius 90 degree turns, and then 40 degrees into the intake, or 220 degrees of total bend on the 12 inches to the outer pistons.

With the Argie or 2V, it gets by with the same 220 degree of total bend to outer cylinders 12 inches away, but its gentle all the way, and flows much better. The air speed is balanced, and the time of travel is more or less the same. The 10% flow loss of the best itake manifold is 10%. The Argie and 2V intakes are likely to be close to a 20% or less flow drop. A log head looses 30 to 40% flow loss, and that's why the engines can't go over 165 hp unless you due soem radical cam and porting upgrades.


Reversing back to the stock 1982 Log 200. It needs a direct mount 500 cfm Holley carb, or maybee the spacer and carb you have with a set of ground out venturis to Holley 500 spec. Remember, a 500 Holley can suck 350 hp on a very highly cammed and well manifolded 289 engine.

The second key is then the cam. If you can cam it with lots of lift, and more duration, you can elevate the airflow. If you port the head internally, there may be small gains. However, the internals are guite smooth. It's just the geometry is all wrong.


The issue is that a 1275 to 1435 cc Mini with siamesed ports flows badly, but you can make it breath 165 hp at 6600rpm with the right cam and carb combo. An independent port log head with good carb, cam, and a little cleaning up of the short turn radii, its got to be able to exceed 165 hp at 5200 rpm, especially since it has over 3269 cc to play with.

I'd say 195 hp at 5800 rpm is within reach. Then add nitrous, and get 280 hp.


The cam is the heartbeat. If you want a mild and tame street car, get a brillant head and a mild cam. If you want a raggard caged animal, get a wild cam with a comparitively poor flowing head.

In your case, stick with a mild cam, a good head, and add nitrous or a supercharger or turbo charger. Either one should give you a minimum 40% boost without a problem. You old 1-bbl gave you 114 flywheel horsepower. Add the 2-bbl and adaptor and FSPP cam, you should be able to get 145 hp or more. Add 40%, you're over the 200 hp level.
 
Great! xtaxi, I've always appreciated your very talented comments on the board. They really are loaded with information and helpful to the whole FSP community.

Sorry to say but you have missed a few threads here. No problem.... 8)

xtaxi":2mmutu36 said:
Greed will be your downfall, young man.

Greed - no. I just don't believe these engines are only below 200hp pieces of metal. I like to see some intelligence to make these more worth using. Define young; does the car show my age?

xtaxi":2mmutu36 said:
A few facts. In Germany, Algeria and, Um, Findland, you are not allowed to alter the basic spec of the car. Or the TUV, Politzi, or whatever tell you to put five on the fender, and spreadegle.

We have always cursed the laws that regulate what you can do or what you can't. Afterwards, by reading some post on this site, I'm glad I'm not in certains parts of the US where regulations seem to be way ridiculous. Here for example it is no big time to swap engines among the choices that have been available that certain model year; many early sixbangers have been changed to 289s/302s, many fox-bodied 4-cyl and 6-cyl cars have been swapped to 302 power. Heck, for example early fox 4-cyl. cars need no other mods than just drop the 302 in with suitable drivetrain, even the brakes are the same...sixes have different K-member, so that need be changed also and makes it slightly more challenging.

xtaxi":2mmutu36 said:
Already, your cooking engine is 114 hp, up 30% from the stock 88 hp they came out with. A 123% performance boost is like going from 88 to 196 hp.

This is where you did not read what I currently have. Take a look at my website and to a few threads I started in 144-250 section so you'll find out that the GEN1 (114hp) engine is out. GEN2 is way ahead of that, and will be proven on the dyno next week. The goal is 150hp at the flywheel. The result will be comparable to the 114hp GEN1 as the dyno is the same. Take a look at the special report in FSP Lounge, about the slalom.

xtaxi":2mmutu36 said:
Reversing back to the stock 1982 Log 200. It needs a direct mount 500 cfm Holley carb, or maybee the spacer and carb you have with a set of ground out venturis to Holley 500 spec. Remember, a 500 Holley can suck 350 hp on a very highly cammed and well manifolded 289 engine.

Plan is to dyno GEN2 engine topped with Autolite 2100/1.21 and another run with Holley 500.

BUT:


This thread that I started has absolutely nothing to do with my current daily driven '80 Mustang, other than that it relates to same type of engine. This is studying and finding directions in advance if there was a project engine and a project car (wink: check the FSP Lounge). But I'm not just wasting everybody's time here; this might actually happen.
 
Yes, I couldn't quite remember what you had after the 114 hp item, but I know its good!

And I know you are a young person with a wise head on your shoulders.

The deal is that if even an Argie 188 engine can give 300 hp, then certainly, a Log head 200 isn't just a sub 200 engine. The streatablity of a 188 Argie isn't going to be great, and the elsusive normally aspirated, non chemically supercharged 250 hp 200 cube engine with its log head awaits us.

I won't be asking it it will be yours or Mustang Geezer's, I see your looking at the ideal stock combo appart itself.


For me, its a log with a 2-bbl, 150 hp 200. The get to with 220 hp with a turbo or supercharger, and then a staged 100 shot of Nitrous oxide.

If it is close to stock, it'll be more tractable than any other comboination, and cheaper to get parts. It's very hard to bend a set of stock conrods at this level of power, but 320 hp from the light, small six looks like the ideal to my four eyes.
 
Ok, the wish list of features (not in any particular order :twisted: ):

1. Power
Goal set at 300hp

2. Streetability
Enough low end torgue and normal idle, avoid on/off behaviour of the engine

3. Reliability
Needs to be reliable, good for daily driven use

4. Affordability
Engine project total cost max $5000 including parts, workshop fees but not a calculated value of hours of own work

5. Ease of use and MPG
Low need for tuning or maintenance once it is done and MPG goal set at 23.5 (equals pretty close to 10L/100km) on easy highway cruising

6. Ability to register for street use
Of course there are variations between regulations in different countries but for starters let's just prohibit NOS


Starting point for discussions:

- 200cid six block
- one of the new alu heads, an Aussie head, or a late Ford head with mods to improve flow and custom intake solution (bye bye to log)
- multi-port EFI, or TBI if goal can be achieved with it: Megasquirt based
- forced induction solution with intercooler: Eaton M90

Let's not discuss about spark and exhaust as I take for granted that they have to be good enough anyway. Spark devices can be budjeted against the engine cost, performance headers too if a charger is used but no cost if a turbo solution is used.

Now think about the starting point and evaluate it against the wish list. Let's try to achieve all the goals, and if not possible, the best possible combination.
 
Alright, I'll take up the challenge. This is my first Hord Core Inline post.
I would start with a late model 200ci head. First, it'd be bye to the log intake. I would make up an intake manifold out of 38mm external diameter mandrel bent pipe. It would run right down until just before the intake runner meets the valve. This would reduce the intake volume, which on standard engines is too big for the motor. Wall thickness would be about 2-3mm. The manifold would interference fit onto the head with possibly a couple of bronze tacks for added strength. Inside of the pipe would be roughed up for better fuel atomisation. The other performance flaw to remove is the exhaust flow problem. First goes in the port divider. On the other ports, bronze weld around the flange in an attempt to remove the harsh bend that reduces flow. Port it out so the flow is straight. Match the volumes of the exhaust runners. Get them as big as possible without finding a water jacket. Next, 60 thou off the head for around 9.0-9.5:1 compression. Polished and reshaped combustion chambers. Big valves with throats shaped into the runners. I would run the engine on LPG. This allows for a higher static compression and it is possible to get more power out of a gas setup than fuel(from what I hear). The exhaust headers would be mandrel bent. Three pipes to a T03 turbo in a hybrid setup( flowed and a slightly more agressive trim), three pipes to the other turbo. 2.5 inch exhaust out from each. Some kind of compression balancer between turbos would be needed to stop crank stressing from the twin independent turbo setup. Twin gas converters capable of ~200hp each. Intake manifold would be setup so that 3 equal length pipes led to a 40mm butterfly throttle body, fed by a pipe from gas converter and turbo. Run two small air to air intercoolers.

Bottom end would be forged dished pistons, strengthened rods, balanced crankshaft, zero decked block, gapless rings along with a full rebuild and a mild camshaft(custom grind). Nothing too complicated.

I am hoping that running the gas setup will let me run a relatively high compression with around 10psi boost. I could be very wrong here, but I figure that if you can run 10.5-11:1 compression without turbo(ford BA didicated gas car), then you could have less static compression and boost to compensate. It may need knock control which could be provided by the water (and other stuff) injection system Xtaxi has previously mentioned, which he says is good for this kind of thing.

Having some capacity and 9:1 compression should give good driveability off boost and two black lines when it kicks in. Turbos being relatively stock should not have too much lag.Turbo engines have decent economy off boost if driven right, which solves another of your problems.

This should allow you to get around 300-400hp(depending on boost) and would be my ideal 200 inline six setup. Wether it would work or not is another question.
 
Back to your original question....


80Stang":1vuicdow said:
...that had a goal to serve as high powered, yet streetable and still raceable and respectable enough to show tail lights to most of its big sisters, would it be a 200 or 250 based?


All else being equal it will always be easier to accomplish your goals with the 250 based engine. Certainly a 200 can make lots of power but the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure) has to be higher to get there. There is no substitute for cubic inches, and when cubic inches are available so easily as they are with the 250 it really makes sense to start there.
Joe
 
Great start! One vote for a twin-turbo setup (woooooooshhhh!) and one for the original question about engine size, the 250. I agree, a 250 would take us more easily there.

Some notes, not to offend anything:
- criteria 6, registrability. If a power adder is used, I don't think they will tolerate an engine that would not be an engine among selectable engines for certain model year. Probably differs from country to country. I count only Mustangs in this time; 65 to 69 and 80 to 82 would go with a 200, 69 to 73 would go with a 250 with no regards to this aspect. I don't think they would tolerate two major changes, a power adder and a engine swap. But while the registrability is among the criterias, we have to kinda think a little bit about the vehicle too.
- 250 block availability. At least here the 200s are readily available, haven't seen even single 250 for sale for 5 years. Of course the project would start with a car purchase. A cheap 65-66 w/200 would be a lot easier to find than a 69-73 w/250, once again depending on the country of course. Well, the criteria list does not specify the amount of own work and amount of money spent on the car, if the car is not reality in the first place. Idea would be as low as possible with both things mentioned.

I find some advantages in a twin turbo setup. The turbos would be small and I guess pretty easy to find cheap. Also I have learned that maybe the power output would be better with turbo(s) than with a charger like Eaton, unless the charger is fairly modern (so it costs $$$$s). A while ago some friends showed me a turbo from Volvo S40 T4 (2.0L 4-cyl. 200hp stock), with adjustable blades that controlled turbo's rpm (???, I don't know about turbos but I'm learning...). You could connect that to the vacuum of the engine for example or have it computer controlled. I undestood the idea was to change the effectivity of the turbo to make it work in low rpms and kick in faster under heavy load. A couple of those in a six? Whooooosh maybe, but once again heavy $$$$s paid for the high technology.
 
Been there, done that. The option of slanting the 250 engine has been thrashed about in 'Im Gonna Blow my Budget' post back in 2003.

The old 225 Slant six has a 10.625" tall block, 2.82" taller than a 200. On a 30 degree lean to starboard, it'll fit in most spaces a Falcon six will.Distributor hits the spring towers on X-bodies and Fox Stangs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/xecute/daves-engine.jpg


A Leaning Tower Of Piaza Ford six is doable, but there are other options.

The 250 does fit a Fox.

See this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/xecute/Fox2503veng.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/xecute/Fox2503vexh.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/xecute/Fox2503vpan.jpg
 
Ok then, the 250 it is. They seem to like boost more due to the undersquare boreXstroke arrangement. can anyone see any fatal flaws in the above twin turbo setup? If not, I will start building it at the end of the year, except on a 200. Probably, like most projects, the flaws are more noticeable once the build starts. Anyway lets see some more setups.
 
Turbos: one bigger thing or two small ones? How about two tiny Garrett T03s from some 2.0/2.3 size engines, would be cheap to find I guess. Two makes twice some costs, like intercoolers, and tubeworks all over the place.

With two it would be cool to run two throttle bodies too, butterflies in syncro. Once again maybe TBI's from smaller engines would do, 2.0L scale stuff. Make the six run like two threes.

To control things it would be cheap to build it over Megasquirt or SDS but would there be some learning MAF systems easily adaptable? To avoid the pain tuning the whole thing.
 
If you're still aiming for 300hp, stick with a single turbo. Even 'cheap' duals will eat up much of your $5K budget. A T04B, 60-1, with a turbine hsg around .69 or .82 will run real nice- and make more than 300hp (if you can flow the fuel & air).

You might also try a T-3 hybrid (60-1); it'll have a TO4 compressor with a T3 turbine housing & mount (fits in more places + has integral wastegate). There are guys making 450hp with these in all kinds of different varieties.

I think a 250-based engine with a properly done AU head, single TO4B, EFI of your choice (that will be the budget killer, even with Megasquirt) should be able to easily achieve the 300hp mark. You could probably do it with a stock bottom end & cam.
 
Stock bottom end with a 250... hmmm.

What do others say, would a 200 (or a 250) still be reliable with stock low end? That would save a lot on the engine budget. If not, is there any estimates how much power target should be lowered if stock low end is used?

Pretty basic questions but you see I'm searching for borders.
 
The stock crank should easily handle 300 hp if properly assembled.

Careful attention to clearances, good bolts, and proper torque is all it takes to make a strong six.
 
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