Interesting comparison of X and H pipes

This topic comes up a lot here for some reason. A six doesn't (or shouldn't need to) benefit from an X or H pipe. The exhaust is balanced to begin with. Most I6 headers are designed to send equally spaced pulses to each half of the exhaust. There are some I6 headers that are unbalanced on purpose, for the sole reason of emulating the inefficient "glug-glug" sound of a V-8. If you have unbalanced headers you can use an X or H pipe with some effect, but why not just use balanced headers in the first place?
Rick(wrench)
 
So, you're saying just dump the X Pipe idea? I've never used one on ANY vehicle before.

Hey William, what about you? Any idea if you are benifiting from having it?

This is such new territory for me that I'm really not sure wich way to go. Not putting one in would certainly simplify the exhaust installation. But, if there is a benifit from having one, now would be the time to do it. I guess the main thing I'd worry about is losing low end power. According to that test, the car dyno'd with slightly less HP at low RPM's with both the H and X pipes compared to stock.

Kris
 
WhitePony":2p366g1j said:
I guess the main thing I'd worry about is losing low end power.

Power won´t be lost by the x-pipe or any other balancer tube alone, but by exhaust tubing of too large diameter which will affect cylinder scavenging negatively.
 
I've spent a lot of weekends going over pipe combinations that work on a dynanometer from chaps like Vizard, Kevin Barlett, Peter Brock, racer D i c k Johnston, and info from the later Ford exhast systems. Another invaluable source is the Lukey technical 'advertorial' in Australian Street Machine. Although it's a straight advertisment trying to beat up sales, the very best article was a Commodore 3.3 owner who wanted the badest (Aussie for worst) exhast note around. The recomemded set-up was exactly the same as Jack used in his Mustang! No wonder Jack hates it!


Without fail, these guys discuss the balance between

back pressure,
size,
and engine note.

Its like a good, quick, cheap building job.

It never exsits in real life, you can have any of two elements, but not all three. What gives you low back pressure has the biggest size, and the worst engine note. What gives you the best note, may be too small, and have too much back pressure. That's why people use balance pipes. They allow systems which are not the ideal work better. A system on a 351C, M,W or 5.0 after 1981 is totally different in operation to a 260-289-302 or early Chev small block. Fireing orders differed. An odd fire Buick needs a different spec to an even fire GM 3800. A six in line doesn't even use the X-pipe the way a V8 does. Mark P discussed how the X-pipe on a V8 operates like a Y -pipe at low speed. An I-6 can't operate on a preferential system, becasue there are totally even firing pulses, while the V8 fireing pulses have a reverse scavange at certain engine speeds.


My advice is not to bust your head over X or H tubes. It's only ever important when you want to ellicit a beautiful engine note while cruising around town. It is more important when you have a very low restriction exhast (deap and boomy, the pipe moderates the noise) or a very resticted set-up (it ensures the reverse pressure waves from the mufflers don't travel back up the exhast).

If you go too big with a single exhast, sixes vibrate, resonate and drone between the off idle and at cruise (the 800 to 2500 rpm area ).

You need to find combinations which work, and avoid those that don't.

Dollar for dollar, a stock size V8 exhast with a good dual out header system is going to make you smile. An X pipe will help remove a drone. I'd sugest on a six, it will allow you to live with a dual set-up which is too big .


I spend most of my time listing to engine notes, and see the hottest sixes on my 4 mile hike to and from work each day. As I decend down 400 feet of my hill to work, I get to see cars slowing from 70 mph to 30 mph in one lane, and speeding from 30 mph to 80 mph or more in the other. I keep a note of the sweetest and worst sounds, and if I see the car around, I do a quick check of the set-up. Generally, the worst ones are the later model XR6's and any Commodore with a Holden, Nissan, or Buick six which has a big single exhast fitted. The best are Lexus IS's with the six, early BMW 323 with the dual exhast, later 328's, M3's, early manual XR6's, and the old sivler 351 Cleveland XF Falcon with dual exhasts which come out under the axle. I see it every day. It's got a balance tube, and sounds like a big Norton Commando or Ducati 851 when given a razzle up. Without a balance tube, all Clevlenads sounds very lazy. The bigger the dual pipe size, the worse it sounds. Add the x-tube or H tube, and ithey sound magic. DeTomaso's with 5.8's or 351's of any denomiation just stuck to smaller quad pipes, and no balance tube. The Italians know ehxasts better than anyone.


The issue is that any in-line six with a big diameter single sounds bad off idle to about 2500 rpm. If you use an X or H pipe, you can run a small diameter dual exhast and gain some accoustics that are sadly lacking with a big single.

In NZ and Australia, the six cylinder Commodore V6's with GM 3800's, and the XR6's with 4.0 sixes, sound dreadfull when an aftermarket 'big gun' single exhast is added, and you can't do any low level profilin' with a big gun exhast. You are noticed blocks away.


The X-pipe is like wsaIII's. That fits with no trans crossmember mods. It's elaborate, but pipe is cheap, and crossmember mods are not always simple.


The H pipe is fitted using a dual out header which then goes to a stock Mustang V8 or Falcon Sprint dual set-up. It has little influence on the pipe accoustics.

The last option is a variant on wsaIII's excellent set-up. Normally, the trans crossmember gets close to hitting any dual out header pipe. To gain space for the X pipe, you just use the common aftermarket Fox V8 transmission adaptor. This basically allows a dual out header to run to a side by side dual exhast like any other set-up. The create the x-pipe, it just needs to touch at the bends with a oval window whic allows the gasses to move without creating a rumble.

If you check OffenokieComets pictures of his 2V 200 Mercury Comet exhast, you'll realise that wsaIII's set up can be done by merly cutting a window into the basic side by side pipe set-up he used. It doesn't have to be elaborate.


Lesson One is from the Aussies. A six cylinder exhast with a dual out header improves low end torque and reduces resonance. Holden had to do this first in 1966 X2 Holden sixes with there cast dual out header. Chrylser Valiant 265 I6's with the Triple Weber Six Pack had a very load exhast, but using the smaller 318 and 340 dual exhast pipes past the header made it tollerably quiet enouigh for the street. In 1985, there last Holden L6 202 engines had a divided dual header to build higher gas velocity before joining the pipes together. It used a the 304 single exhast which was restrictive on the 164 hp V8's, but fine on the 142 hp L6. I might add that none of these cars used cross-over pipes, but the noise with big singles was dreadfull.

Lesson Two was Jack Collins and other F-series guys from the Big Six forum. The f150's with big singles and the Aussie X-flow in what is now Brian's ( mutangsix2 ) car were a disapointment at lower cruise rpms. Big single pipes with big mufflers are about as sexy as a fart in the bathroom. Go over the posts, and see there benchmarks.


Lesson Three. The first guys to run dual exhasts sixes here have found it removes the low speed rumble, and makes it more V-8 like.


Lesson Four was wsaIII's set-up. It breaks the curse of the low end six cylinder engine note when you have bigger pipes. His set-up is quite a large set-up. If you run duals without an X-tube, you'll be fine untill you go too big.

Too big is when the total area of the total set-up past the collector (called the tail pipe) is above the a certain level. It' s based on square inches of tail pipe verses cubic inches or engine. As you go up to higher horsepower levles, you run into a higher ration of exhast size to cubic inches. Horsepower governs the choice ideal pipe size formula. This is why Italian cars run multiple pipe set-ups. Its becasue they've understood the principal of ideal gas speed. There are not any accustic levels by formula.


The thing to realise is that the exhast is just a large saxaphone. You find out the bad notes, and stay away from them if they don't impress anyone. If you like big vibrating singles, then it'll rock the town.


Following the ricer (big singles with large bore mufflers), or the V-8 crowd ('huge' duals with cross-overs and over sized exhasts or 3" singles) isn't going to help much to the six cylinder guy.
 
Very interesting. So what's the reciepe?

To optimize low end torque use ......
To optimize high RPM performance ....

This should be a sticky.
 
I've got a pacemaker header to duals with flowmasters...My only problem was that I had too much "drone" while cruising. After talking to my muffler guy and begging him to rip out my new flowmasters he suggested putting on a "H" pipe. Well, to make a long story short....It was the best $45 bucks I've ever spent. It took the "drone" away and gave the exhaust a deeper tone.

As far as power..Can't tell a difference, but the sound change was very noticable.

That's my 2 Cents....
 
WhitePony":21y8drb9 said:
Hey, what do you folks think of this thing?

magna_x.jpg

that is exactly what Brian and I are building into the ends of the headers now. But because we are cheapskates (at least, I am), we are going to do it with cheap (free) used pieces. The headers have a Y-pipe on the end now that dumps to a 2 1/4" outlet. I found another Y- pipe the same size. If you cut the Y very close to where the two come together and weld the ends together, voila, X-pipe. I'm also going to weld in a bung for the O2 sensor in the center.

We're going to use an exhaust sytem that borders on "too big". The Summit 2 1/4" system is priced right and will be easy to adapt. If Brian ever gets around to adding nitrous or a forced induction, this will work well. And if we lose a couple of foot lbs of bottom end, big deal. This thing has enough torque to smoke the tires in the first three gears already.
 
I guess I'm not getting what you guys are trying to do.
If the exhaust pulses are already balanced in a performance I6 dual out system what is the function of the X pipe?
In a typical american (crossplane crankshaft) V-8, the pulses are are: left bank, right, left, LEFT, right, RIGHT, left, right. This is the origin of the -glug-glug- in american V-8s. Two pulses piled up on each other in each bank, causing a logjam of exhaust gasses that kills scavenging ability. The ideal system spreads the pulses out evenly for good scavenging. About the best available compromise on an american V-8 is the use of 4-2-1 headers, the two adjacent pulses still jam up on the same side at the collector, but for the first leg of the journey are reasonably far apart.
In a flatplane V-8, like a ferrari, it's easy to balance the exhaust as the banks alternate every pulse. These engines essentially operate as two four cylinder engines sharing a common crankshaft, with all of the inherent 4 cylinder vibration issues, multiplied by two. The headers can be short, and an X pipe is not needed. This perfectly balanced exhaust system gives you that distinct ferrari flatplane crankshaft V-8 scream.
If you balance the exhaust of an american V-8 with alternate firing (180 degree or "crossover") headers, you will get the same scream. But have you seen a pair of true 180 headers for a V-8? They are incredibly complicated, and generally unusable on a front engine car. A 302 powered GT40 with the "bundle of snakes" 180 degree headers sounds very much like a V-8 ferrari, the same car, same engine, with traditional headers sounds like every other V-8 mustang on the road.
On a performance I6 dual out system the 1st, 3rd, and 5th, firing cylinders should be grouped together and the 2nd, 4th, and 6th firing cylinders together. So, an I6 header designed for maximum scavenging, and performance, should have the cylinders number 1, 2, and 3, then the 4, 5, and 6, seperated into the dual pipes. If designed this way there would be absolutely no need for an X pipe. The sole purpose of an X pipe is to unload the adjacent pulses in an american V-8 from the jammed up side, into the other side's, empty at that time, pipe.
If you have a "V-8 sound" I6 header (I have one), each half of the dual system is loaded up with the first three firing cylinders and then the second three. The result is an inefficient -glug-glug- exhaust note, very much like a V-8, with all of it's scavenging problems, and then some, as ther are no alternating pulse.. Using an X pipe with this type of header defeats the whole purpose of the "V-8 sound" header in the first place, and tries to correct a problem designed, on purpose, into the header!
Am I crazy?
In any case, regardless of each type of I6 header's design, both are HUGE improvements over the stock manifold.
Rick(wrench)
 
The point is that an I6 sounds dreadfull when the dual pipes get too big.

or if a single pipe is too big.

a Balance pipe fixes it on a dual set-up.


As said in my ramble, an X or H pipe on a six doesn't work like a V8 balance pipe, becasue the impulses are even and don't scavange. Interferance (Clifford style) or tunned length (FSSP Pacemaker/Hooker) headers are designed to suit the chassis first.

The point is that if its drones, you have to do something without throwing your expesive exhast away. On a big single, your goose is cooked if it drones. On a dual outlet item, you just add an X or H pipe, and it will sort it out.

Fluid engineers found out that water hammer and pipe pressure problems can be fixed by linking pipes in some circumstances. Dunno why, but proof of pudding is in the eating.
 
It really is just a sound quality issue. There's little to no power to be gained in the old X- vs. H- vs single exhaust issue. BTW, the late model BMW M3 uses an X-, but it's been shown that it makes no difference in power.

One other interesting way that I've seen sound quality tuned it thru the use of a resonator pipe. It is a deadend standpipe of a particular length whose sole purpose is to tune the exhaust at certain frequencies.
 
rickwrench":mvt6mr09 said:
On a performance I6 dual out system the 1st, 3rd, and 5th, firing cylinders should be grouped together and the 2nd, 4th, and 6th firing cylinders together. So, an I6 header designed for maximum scavenging, and performance, should have the cylinders number 1, 2, and 3, then the 4, 5, and 6, seperated into the dual pipes. If designed this way there would be absolutely no need for an X pipe. The sole purpose of an X pipe is to unload the adjacent pulses in an american V-8 from the jammed up side, into the other side's, empty at that time, pipe.
If you have a "V-8 sound" I6 header (I have one), each half of the dual system is loaded up with the first three firing cylinders and then the second three. The result is an inefficient -glug-glug- exhaust note, very much like a V-8, with all of it's scavenging problems, and then some, as ther are no alternating pulse.. Using an X pipe with this type of header defeats the whole purpose of the "V-8 sound" header in the first place, and tries to correct a problem designed, on purpose, into the header!
Am I crazy?
In any case, regardless of each type of I6 header's design, both are HUGE improvements over the stock manifold.
Rick(wrench)

so what would a I6 dual out system with the 1st, 3rd, and 5th, firing cylinders grouped together and the 2nd, 4th, and 6th firing cylinders together sound like?
 
I agree with Rick (wrench). I apply the KISS principle when ever possible and will be running a single collector header to a dual out muffler. One of the reasons those of you are having difficulties with the sound is that you may not be use to a balanced note.

The one thing that I would be concerned with on these dual exhaust setups is that you are messing with the balanced pulses in the exhaust. Once the exhaust is split at the header I would think it would be difficult without some research and developement costs to really know how and or where to connect the two runners again without inducing an out of sync pulse into both of the tail pipes. If that happens you end up creating backpressure.

Good luck, Ric.
 
If it is only a sound quality/droning issue, an inline resonator type "muffler" (not a rice fart can "resonator") ahead of the actual muffler will kill the drone much more effectively than using an X/H pipe for this purpose. Then, of course, there is the money thing. It depends on which is cheaper, I suppose.
As to what a balanced exhaust sounds like on any even firing 6, I'd say it sounds perfect. A smooth, powerful roar, with the right mufflers.
My corvair has a balanced dual system. VERY short travel (3 feet from exhaust port to end of the system) and running two 2" in and out turbo mufflers. There is no sound on earth better than that car, wide open at 6000rpm, going through a tunnel. When people hear it, they know one thing for sure, it's definitely NOT a glugging V-8.
It drones at 2700 - 2900 rpm, and a resonator would fix the problem, if there was room. I wouldn't recommend small dual turbo mufflers for any I6 Falcon/mustang/maverick because there is plenty of room for better - and a resonator.
A single pipe system will not drone or boom -at all- with a resonator inline just after the collecter. The common practice with 240/260/280 Zs using a header/single pipe system (they were notorious for booming) was to scrounge a resonator from an older cadillac (i.e., hacksaw + junkyard = resonator) and mount it just after the collector. Result: no more droning.
Rick(wrench)
 
We're not shooting for a V8 sound. We want something that causes grown men to weep with emotion when they hear pulling hard at 6000 rpm! :D

Actually, we're shooting for something like Aston Martin, XKE, BMW M3......classic high performance sixes.
 
bergerfromage":34e4qal8 said:
so what would a I6 dual out system with the 1st, 3rd, and 5th, firing cylinders grouped together and the 2nd, 4th, and 6th firing cylinders together sound like?


I had a header with that arrangement on my old 200 - no crossover pipe and glasspacks. Here's what it sounded like: www.geocities.com/jryelverton/inliner.wav (copy & paste)

It could have passed for a V8 to the untrained ear until it hit about 3,000 rpms. Had I kept the exhaust pipe smaller, it might have given it a more pleasing note.
 
MustangSix":13955lkt said:
Actually, we're shooting for something like Aston Martin, XKE, BMW M3......classic high performance sixes.


mmmmmm, I love the sound of an M3 at full throttle.
 
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