I want to purchase a complete motor, 254, "M" series, 48-53, F600 or bus engine. If you know of one, please contact me via e-mail
jgw2@bellsouth.net
THANKS, John
jgw2@bellsouth.net
THANKS, John
NEED: motor, 254, "M" series, 48-53, F600 or bus e
- Thread starter M6ride
- Start date
Fred
Well-known member
E-mail Vinny at: fifftyford@yahoo.com
He says he has some M motors for sale; I have not talked to him personally.
I did some more research on the M motor and need to correct my earlier statement. The M motor was developed for bus service in 1948. Ford make a couple hundred busses total with this engine, not a likely source. In 1950, not 1948, Ford started offering this as an optional motor in F-6 (two ton) trucks. This motor was kept in production through 1953 and the only M motors I have personally seen (which I own) are '53 motors. This is easy to identify because the timing cover has motor mounts built on it. The normal H series flathead six timing cover bolts on and the '53 block still has motor mounts on the block.
He says he has some M motors for sale; I have not talked to him personally.
I did some more research on the M motor and need to correct my earlier statement. The M motor was developed for bus service in 1948. Ford make a couple hundred busses total with this engine, not a likely source. In 1950, not 1948, Ford started offering this as an optional motor in F-6 (two ton) trucks. This motor was kept in production through 1953 and the only M motors I have personally seen (which I own) are '53 motors. This is easy to identify because the timing cover has motor mounts built on it. The normal H series flathead six timing cover bolts on and the '53 block still has motor mounts on the block.
Thanks, Fred; I'm John & live in Memphis. I have been in contact with Vinny in Atlanta (he's holding onto his motors for the time being as backups). On ebay while reading about parts for sale for 226/254 I discovered that this engine started production in Cnnada in 48 and started production here in the USA in 49, assuming the info was correct. Do you know who cuts a 3/4 cam for this engine or a step above the stock cam? Do you know who might do street porting and relieving for this engine? I have a lead on a 254 engine, maybe a couple; plus, a couple 226's.
Fred
Well-known member
M6ride,
I don't know who would be a soure for a cam, sorry. My best suggestions on a build up are:
Don't worry about aluminum head, use a passenger car H head with a
small mill job on your M; that will provide all the compression you need.
Find a vintage Mallory distributor if you want dual carburetion.
Make your own headers with two stock manifolds, one car one truck. I
think Vinny has done this, if not see the post on flathead performance
parts.
Make sure the block is actually an M. The part number is cast on the drivers side oil pan rail near the front of the block; it usually is covered with oil and dirt gunk.
Try to get the connecting rods with the motor. They are M specific and much tougher than H rods. You can tell the difference because the H rod has built in rod bolts ( like a flathead V8 ) and the M has replaceable rod bolts.
I don't know who would be a soure for a cam, sorry. My best suggestions on a build up are:
Don't worry about aluminum head, use a passenger car H head with a
small mill job on your M; that will provide all the compression you need.
Find a vintage Mallory distributor if you want dual carburetion.
Make your own headers with two stock manifolds, one car one truck. I
think Vinny has done this, if not see the post on flathead performance
parts.
Make sure the block is actually an M. The part number is cast on the drivers side oil pan rail near the front of the block; it usually is covered with oil and dirt gunk.
Try to get the connecting rods with the motor. They are M specific and much tougher than H rods. You can tell the difference because the H rod has built in rod bolts ( like a flathead V8 ) and the M has replaceable rod bolts.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Mr Mills, greetings, sir. Nice to know that we have something in common.
It is always a pleasure talking with other Ford 254 flat motor owners so to speak. You seem to be quite knowledgable about these motors. What do you owe your knowledge too? Would you like to exchange some wisdom
between us in regards to part sources, web sites, racing and stock motor configuration about these motors? I'm in touch with John and I gave him a source that has a few of these motors. I hope that he goes along with what hes got in mind, and soon!! Vinny G.
It is always a pleasure talking with other Ford 254 flat motor owners so to speak. You seem to be quite knowledgable about these motors. What do you owe your knowledge too? Would you like to exchange some wisdom
between us in regards to part sources, web sites, racing and stock motor configuration about these motors? I'm in touch with John and I gave him a source that has a few of these motors. I hope that he goes along with what hes got in mind, and soon!! Vinny G.
Fred
Well-known member
Vinny:
I must confess that most of my research is from Ford part manuals and Ford repair manuals along with a little bit of Ford truck history books and a some hands on wrench turning. I currently am working on a '50 tudor. I like old Fords ( I also have a '38 standard coupe that is not running) and I like the benefits of the six cylinder; they run cooler, are easier to work on, and the M and H series hold rock steady oil pressure.
I have also seen more than one stroke crank in Ford flathhead six engines. I used to own a '50 pickup with an H in it. The motor was all worn out and I pulled the head. I don't remember exactly what the stroke was, but it was definitly shorter than the stock 4.4 inches. I think it was around 3.5 inches. It looked like the motor had been in a boat at one time. My best guess is that there was some racing class that limited displacement to around 180-190 cubes (3 liter?) that this crank was made for. I have no idea if it was welded (seems unlikely) or a custom make crank. I sold the truck a few years ago to a guy living in San Antonio, and the last I knew the guy still had it as a parts truck. If anyone is interested I might be able to find him again, but it would probably take a couple months because I don't remember his name.
I must confess that most of my research is from Ford part manuals and Ford repair manuals along with a little bit of Ford truck history books and a some hands on wrench turning. I currently am working on a '50 tudor. I like old Fords ( I also have a '38 standard coupe that is not running) and I like the benefits of the six cylinder; they run cooler, are easier to work on, and the M and H series hold rock steady oil pressure.
I have also seen more than one stroke crank in Ford flathhead six engines. I used to own a '50 pickup with an H in it. The motor was all worn out and I pulled the head. I don't remember exactly what the stroke was, but it was definitly shorter than the stock 4.4 inches. I think it was around 3.5 inches. It looked like the motor had been in a boat at one time. My best guess is that there was some racing class that limited displacement to around 180-190 cubes (3 liter?) that this crank was made for. I have no idea if it was welded (seems unlikely) or a custom make crank. I sold the truck a few years ago to a guy living in San Antonio, and the last I knew the guy still had it as a parts truck. If anyone is interested I might be able to find him again, but it would probably take a couple months because I don't remember his name.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Greetings Fred. I also have a 50 sedan 2dr. Have you ever entertained the thought of building a H.P. flat six motor? I am in the process of working with a fellow on the W. coast who makes the famous Navaro heads for the flatty 8's. He claims that he can fabricate an aluminum head with deeper combustion chambers for ny flat six. This is what im looking for in terms of valve lift and piston height. Vinny G.
Has anyone actually put a "M" engine in a 50 (shoebox) 2-door with the original oil pan on the motor? I've located me a car now, and all-original "H" car.
If so are there any interference problems with the steering, e.g., or other obstacles?
Would it be better or mandatory to replace the M oil pan with a H oil pan? I think the oil pickup would have to be replaced as well.
TIA; John
If so are there any interference problems with the steering, e.g., or other obstacles?
Would it be better or mandatory to replace the M oil pan with a H oil pan? I think the oil pickup would have to be replaced as well.
TIA; John
Fred, I was thinking about a T5 tranny; there's a Dwight at 2nd chance classics who sells an AL adapter plate ($100.oo) . I have his tel number in case anyone wants it. There are lot's of factors to evaluate before just jumping into this situation. I feel it can be a very rewarding challenge assuming one can find the parts. It might boil down to rebuilding a 226 due to the scarcity of the 254 parts.
M6ride - I would like to have the phone number for your source of T5 swap adapters. I've had some email exchanges with the various flathead V8 trans adapter makers and some say it will work with my H motor, some say probably not, and some don't know. I'm torn between doing a C4 or a T5 - the stick would be more fun to drive but my wife requests an automatic. Either way I get to make many other changes to the drivetrain on my '48 sedan.
Thanks!
Ed
Thanks!
Ed
:idea: Just wondering who has a sonic checker (to determine cylinder wall thicknesses) AND a 226 (H engine) with the head off or better yet a bare block.
I'd be very interested to see what the average cylinder wall thicknesses are on the H;
ADDITIONALLY, I'd be interested to see what the avg. wall thicknesses are for the M too.
Don't suppose the blocks could have had the same mold internally, thus allowing for a 200 thousandth's overbore of the 226 to get 254 cube's and still have adequate wall thickness. I believe this should be thoroughly investigated. Now to find a sonic checker; any volunteer's??????????????
I'd be very interested to see what the average cylinder wall thicknesses are on the H;
ADDITIONALLY, I'd be interested to see what the avg. wall thicknesses are for the M too.
Don't suppose the blocks could have had the same mold internally, thus allowing for a 200 thousandth's overbore of the 226 to get 254 cube's and still have adequate wall thickness. I believe this should be thoroughly investigated. Now to find a sonic checker; any volunteer's??????????????
A
Anonymous
Guest
Lets put this subject to rest once and for all. The T-5 cannot, willnot, and never adapt to the Ford Flatty six Bellhousins. Only trans that WILL with some very lil mods is the early Ford 4-speed close ration Top Loaders, OR
the Ford C-4 Automatics. PERIOD. CASE CLOSED>>>>>>>>
the Ford C-4 Automatics. PERIOD. CASE CLOSED>>>>>>>>
A
Anonymous
Guest
This board reminds me of my early days when I first started off with these flat 6 motors. In a sense its refreshing to say the least. Can't tell you the wall thickness right off hand but, I've overbored the "H"-series motors 60 over many a time with No problems. The same goes for the "M"-series 254. Unlike the overhead valve motors, it is imperative that you have the Flathead blocks, (both 6 & 8's) sonic checked due to casting shifting (if any) in the cylinders. You dont want to pay the machine shop a bunch of money only for him to get to (say) #6 cylinder and (((WHAM)))
right into a water jacket. There goes ya money down the drain, especially if you already got other work into the block. Ofcause you can always go with a sleeve, BUT..............ehehehehh
right into a water jacket. There goes ya money down the drain, especially if you already got other work into the block. Ofcause you can always go with a sleeve, BUT..............ehehehehh
I'm going by www and book research here, not actual experience so it's very possible that I'm completely wrong, but. . .
My understanding is that the swap is accomplished by changing the bellhousing along with the trans, using an adapter plate on the block. Like you, the only trans I've seen connected to the factory bell is the toploader 4 speed.
I _think_ the trans/clutch/other parts from the 6 is the same as the 8 in the early Fords ('48 and earlier, watching out for the different rear block designs on the V-8 ). Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks,
Ed
My understanding is that the swap is accomplished by changing the bellhousing along with the trans, using an adapter plate on the block. Like you, the only trans I've seen connected to the factory bell is the toploader 4 speed.
I _think_ the trans/clutch/other parts from the 6 is the same as the 8 in the early Fords ('48 and earlier, watching out for the different rear block designs on the V-8 ). Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks,
Ed
Vinny in an e-mail from you on 01/16/05 you wrote
.."I buy ALL my motor parts from www.eggie.com Visit their
web site and get one of their catalogs. As far as the C-4, NO it will NOT mate to a 226 "H"-series (or) a 254
"M"-series bellhousing, (which is the same by the way). In order to run the C-4 behind the flat six motors, you
must go to www.flatomatic.com and purchase thier adapter kit which they sell just (and only) for this purpose."
Vinny, guess what: 1) egge doesn't sell parts for a 254
2) flatomatic does not exist
On the 01/17/05, you wrote me in an e-mail:
...." What is a T-5?".... and now you are posting all this about a T-5 won't work; well, it seems to me that you might keep an open mind to things which you don't know anything about. Call Dwight and discuss. Do you know what a hog's head is?
In Nov 2004, Vinny you posted that you had 2 254's for sale and now you don't want to sell, plus you claim you want to buy more from NE (he won't sell to YOU). I say TRY it!
Cheers
.."I buy ALL my motor parts from www.eggie.com Visit their
web site and get one of their catalogs. As far as the C-4, NO it will NOT mate to a 226 "H"-series (or) a 254
"M"-series bellhousing, (which is the same by the way). In order to run the C-4 behind the flat six motors, you
must go to www.flatomatic.com and purchase thier adapter kit which they sell just (and only) for this purpose."
Vinny, guess what: 1) egge doesn't sell parts for a 254
2) flatomatic does not exist
On the 01/17/05, you wrote me in an e-mail:
...." What is a T-5?".... and now you are posting all this about a T-5 won't work; well, it seems to me that you might keep an open mind to things which you don't know anything about. Call Dwight and discuss. Do you know what a hog's head is?
In Nov 2004, Vinny you posted that you had 2 254's for sale and now you don't want to sell, plus you claim you want to buy more from NE (he won't sell to YOU). I say TRY it!
Cheers
The Flat-o-Matic conversion parts can be found here, at their www site:
http://www.flat-o.com/
They do both T-5 and C4 conversion kits.
Ed
http://www.flat-o.com/
They do both T-5 and C4 conversion kits.
Ed
