Piston Rings

Titleist16

Well-known member
I got new piston and rings for the one cylinder that got messed up but the rings I bought have a moly top ring and the rest of the rings regular cast rings. The rest of the pistons have chrome moly rings from FSPP. The guy at the shop said I shouldn't have put in chrome moly rings because they are for high RPM engines and they take forever to seat. Is this true? The whole crank assembly is balanced, will the different rings throw the balance off?
 
The bore should be honed to match the ring type. If in doubt, use a softer ring like iron. It may wear sacrificially but this is a small price. Quality of honing affects the engine life immensely.

Your balance will not be affected. What "shop" was the naysayer from - the engine builder, or a parts outlet?
 
Adam is right, balance unaffected.

You may be thinking of CHROME faced rings (dull silver finish on face when new) Those DO need a VERY rough finish to seat, but plain cast iron and moly rings use a fine finish.

You are mixed up - there is no chrome moly rings until you get into 4130 and 4340 series chrome moly rings, about $250 a set. Race only.
 
Maybe they are just moly rings then, they were only $75 from FSPP. If they were only race rings then I think Mike would have put that on the site. He has great descriptions and details of his products for different uses.
 
This is a good topic. Since yesterday, I have done quite a fair bit of research on piston rings. Actually, there is really no such thing as a chrome moly rings, it's just what everyone calls them. Basically there are three types, iron, moly, and true chrome (each with various types). The rings I supply are plasma moly Series E rings, which are suited to mild or performance street use, and light towing. So you are fine.

I will be doing a tech article on pistons rings over the next few days and will post it here. I've been gathering some great info that should help anyone decide which rings to use when building a motor. I talked in lenght with Geogre at Clay Smith today, and he was very helpful. He is sending me more info via fax, as well as Seal Power and Clevite. Very interesting stuff, which is usually over looked and mis-understood.
 
AzCoupe":3e3iqywb said:
Actually, there is really no such thing as a chrome moly rings,.

Wrong.
Spend some time around guys building $50,000 engines. They will NOT want to tell you what stuff their rings are made of. You would be VERY surprised at some of the materials and alloys being used for piston rings.... .....and they HEAVILY guard their secrets.

The term "plausible deniability" comes to mind :)
 
Thanks a lot for the info Mike. Just one less thing for me to worry about with all of the other stuff that has happened.
 
Titleist16":28mkhdb0 said:
I think Mike would have put that on the site. He has great descriptions and details of his products for different uses.

Yes, he does..except for the RPM ranges of the camshafts.
That needs to be fixed. Some of the ones with less duration have a higher RPM range than those of more duration.
That might make cam selection confusing for some folks.....
 
AzCoupe":3tyo0dwu said:
This is a good topic. Since yesterday, I have done quite a fair bit of research on piston rings. Actually, there is really no such thing as a chrome moly rings, it's just what everyone calls them. Basically there are three types, iron, moly, and true chrome (each with various types). The rings I supply are plasma moly Series E rings, which are suited to mild or performance street use, and light towing. So you are fine.

I will be doing a tech article on pistons rings over the next few days and will post it here. I've been gathering some great info that should help anyone decide which rings to use when building a motor. I talked in lenght with Geogre at Clay Smith today, and he was very helpful. He is sending me more info via fax, as well as Seal Power and Clevite. Very interesting stuff, which is usually over looked and mis-understood.


I'll be awaiting the article as i have heard the same thing as you described that there is no such thing as chrome moly rings. I'd be willing to bet that lync's200 is right to an extent though because, racers do use some pretty crazy alloys and metal combinations that i couldn't dream of. For jusyt everyday applications though i'd be surprised if you were wrong. Anyways nice information glad to have heard it from 2 people now lol.
 
Gerry Lutz Jr.":2virldt8 said:
I'd be willing to bet that lync's200 is right.

Hey!!!
I KNOW I'm right!! :wink:


Great links, Mandarina!!

From the first link:

Plasma-sprayed moly over a ductile-iron base material is the preferred choice, but steel is becoming more popular because it’s at least as strong and easier to machine

From the third link:

rings are now being made from aircraft steel

The most commonly used steels used in the aircraft industry are 4130 chrome-moly and 4340 chrome-moly.
 
ACL have a great PDF of their pistons and rings. Most of it's irrelevant but they do deal with ring types in common use, how to identify the top of the ring, honing grades and methods, and break in procedure.

It will not be too different from any other manufacturer's ideas - but why not also read what the makers say themselves, rather than just balancing hearsay?

http://www.acl.com.au/

Click on the Customer Service drop-down menu, selecting "Catalogues".

Next choose "Adobe Acrobat versions of paper catalogs"

Select "Piston Products (PP03)"

When it comes to a new frame, right click and "Save as". After it's come through, read up on the rings and bores.
 
Maybe using steel as it's less brittle than cast iron, maybe for detonation resistance.

Mike does have a point, though- for years people have talked about Chrom moly rings when they meant Chrome plated rings, or thought the only way molrbdenum came was somehow bonded to chrome.
 
I was referring to common everyday shelf items we buy from our local parts stores, not some custom made one off jobs costing hundreds of dollars, or ring sets that most of us would never purchase (or need) due to their high price tag.

Chrome moly is a term often misused when describing rings. Do a search for "chrome moly" rings and see what you come up with. Typically it will refer to a common moly ring rather than a high tech, super alloy, chrome moly steel ring set, used primarily for high end racing where budgets are not as stringent as our typical forum member. :wink:

To answer the question this topic is all about in the first place:
The guy at the shop said I shouldn't have put in chrome moly rings because they are for high RPM engines and they take forever to seat. Is this true?
Answer:
Speed-Pro top rings are manufactured from high strength Ductile Iron with an exclusive Plasma-Moly facing for instant seating, superior cylinder sealing and optimum durability.


In simple layman terms:

The single most important factor to be considered in selecting the proper compression (top) ring face coating material is the service requirements the engine will be operated under. Will the engine be subjected to unusual speed or load (high temp conditions), stop and go - short trip driving, occasional or regular strip use, or in a high dust or dirt environment?

The three popular types of compression ring face coatings are cast iron, moly, and chrome. Each has advantages of its own with respect to operating conditions. Plain cast iron is a durable wear surface in normal operating conditions and is less costly than the moly or chrome faced rings. Moly rings have a very high resistance to scuff and superior oil control capability. Chrome rings have good resistance to scuff (better than iron) but do not exhibit moly's oil retention capabilities.

For typical light duty service where the vehicle is not subjected to long periods of high speed or load operation and is run primarily on paved streets, plain cast iron is a good choice when not subjected to unusual dirt or heat conditions.

When faced with occasional or continuous high speed and/or load conditions (where the engine is subject to periods of high temperature ranges), moly is a good choice because of its scuff resistance and strength. Moly, which is an acronym for molybdenum, is quite porous in its applied state, which results in excellent retention of oil in the face of the ring. Moly also has the highest melting point of the three popular face coatings which results in its capability to live better under more severe operating conditions, or more specifically, to resist scuffing and scoring. Moly rings are better suited to performance engines in which the rings are expected to serve adequately, through-out the engines entire life.

In a dusty environment encountered while operating on dirt or unpaved roads, chrome is the best choice. As mentioned earlier moly, because of Its porosity, holds oil on the O.D. face of the ring which helps inhibit scuffing. Yet the pores on the material also can serve as a trap for foreign materials. Because the incoming air/fuel mixture will probably contain some abrasive contaminant in a dusty environment, chrome with its smoother O.D. surface, is a better choice. Chrome has more resistance to scuffing and scoring than cast iron, but somewhat less than moly.

Bottom line, this is a great topic with good information for all. :wink:

For more information on Speed Pro plasma moly rings:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/content/front/0,2194,2442_897063_8682,00.html
 
That was a good write up. I hope more people take the time to read it.
 
I just finished editting my website. The "RING" pages now include the above article, and the description of the product has been change. This was very interesting (at least to me). I don't ever recall a topic on rings, so this was a great learning experience. I have more infomation on the way, which will be added to the FSPP website. Hopefully some of our members will benefit from the outcome of this topic. Thanks Titleist16 :wink:

http://www.cquesttechnologies.com/fspp/products.asp?cat=20
 
Mike, your reply & links to professional ring manufacturers was very informative.

I did not realize that they now recommend almost double the end gap on the 2nd ring, as compared to old technology.

Have you or anyone else ventured into the new gapless rings now available??

Are they feasable for just high performance street & occasional strip duty, and still maintain good oil control??

Anybody using the gapless rings?? Just interested. William
 
I have built race engines with Childs and Albert, and Total Seal. I can't say there was a measurable difference between gapless and well gapped rings. The total seal rings have a narower face because of the way they are made with the spacer, so they probably have less friction and less life. Childs and Albert overlap without a spacer, so they are the same thickness as the ring grove. Probably a little more friction and a little more life. If memory serves me right gapless rings are limited to the second ring which mainly control oil, not compression. They show less leakdown when the engine isn't running. The new method of gapping the second ring more than the top goes against the gapless ring theory. It sounds logical to me. I have one more dirt motor to build and I will try this. The second ring functions as a scraper. When you tear down an engine look at the second ring and you will notice that they are usualy shiny at the bottom of the ring and the top doesn't have wear because of the tapered face. Install these upside down and you will pump oil to the cylinders.

I have had excelent service from all three. I have seen more variations in life due to different types of air filters than ring selection. Five hundred race laps on a dirt motor is good but I have had some customers get fifteen hundred race laps and still run the front of the pack. Filters make a huge difference.
 
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