Rotary spherical valvetrain!

T

tabrinn

New member
My interest was piqued when I read about the Coates RSV head somewhere in this forum a while back. So, I wrote the place to see what it would take to make a run of these. They actually responded fairly quick!
Thought I'd like to share a little.

"To undertake your proposal would require a great many changes in our plans and probably necessitate finding another plant in this area. That is, of course, if we choose to hire additional r & d staff, etc, etc. At this point in time, it doesn’t appear that there is a great deal of volume that could be attached to refitting the Ford 300 CID or the 200 CID inline six. To undertake that type of thing could happen only if the Coates Motorsports Division received full funding, which at present it doesn’t have, and an evaluation of all the IC engines in autos and trucks revealed that your proposal would make the most sense to us. While we are not finished with our current workload, we are making progress."

How would one go about getting them to see things our way? What did it take to get the FSPP head produced? They plan to release these in custom choppers in '07. Seems like a waste on 97CID! Anyone with me!?
 
tabrinn":kueignoi said:
How would one go about getting them to see things our way? What did it take to get the FSPP head produced? They plan to release these in custom choppers in '07. Seems like a waste on 97CID! Anyone with me!?
Click to expand...

Like the Alan Jackson song says " It just takes MONEY" :wink:
 
Yea, possibly a minimum order/ good down payment up front, what ever. There was enough interest in the FSPP head for the 200 to get it made, How about one of these for the 300!? There was a write up in Popular Hot Rodding that told about a 5.0 test motor that went from like 250 HP @ 5500 RPM to 450 @ 5500 RPM N/A with no mods to the bottom end. Fully built they wrapped it out to over 14,000 RPM! I doubt the 300 could hold together for that long but still it should be really something! I'd be willing to put down a few grand for one of these. If enough of us show interest I'm sure something could be worked out.
 
well it only took Mike's (Azcoupe) ideas and his willingness to get the FSPP head made and there will be one developed for the 300's as soon as he gets everything worked out on the 200's( i think that is wut he said) and the main reason the 200 head is getting made is because Mike loves these motors and has to determination to follow through with his passion
 
hey
i think it whould actully be easyer and cheaper to hae mike make a alloy head then fit it with pneumatic valve springs lots less r/d and more reliable.
or make your self one like us aussie did back in the late 50ies on old holden grey engine how does 300+hp from 138in n/a in 1960 :evil:
drift
 
Have you heard that Waggott head? Excellent note!

How would the exhaust from a rotary spherical head sound? :twisted:
 
A few old mans observations:
There is alot of engineering involved and if for a niche market then the market has to have big and deep pockets. Ergo show bikes (that do not have to run well) and race engines (which do).

First you would have to design a cross flow head, then a drive system for the twin valve shafts very similar to a DOHC head except the valve shafts being driven weight a bit more and will need a heavier system to handle the inertial mass when changing engine speed. There is space limitation and original engine design limitation. In your minds eye design and install a DOHC drive system for the 300. First find and design a new location for the water pump, turn the camshaft in to an idler shaft, etc------

Second there is still a valve timing issue, the longer the valve is open the greater the diameter of the valve shaft needs to be. Let see you swap those "cams" over the week end.

Rotary valves (shaft type) have been tried and used to some degree since the very beginning of the developement of the IC engine notable in aircraft during WWI and some in WWII. But by todays standards these were very primitive engines. As valve timing-duration and rpm increased the limited capability was exceeded.

Twenty + years ago HRM ran articles on Coates and other rotary valve systems but nothing happened on the street. Some of Coates website pics date back to the orginal HRM article (?). And if the system is so good why is there not a single auto manufacture or race team using it. There is a great Golly-Gee Whiz factor but that seems to be it.

I know, it is that conspiracy bunch hard at it again.

One final question:
What would the piston speed be for a 5.0 Ford at 14000 rpm?
And that was on gasoline?
 
Exactly. If it worked you would have seen it being used in the cost-is-no-object 20,000 RPM worlds of F1 or MotoGP. F1 has settled on pneumatically operated valve trains and MotoGP has tended towards desmodromics. AFAIK, nobody is even thinking of using this system. F1 development budgets are in the tens of million dollars annually, MotoGP are not much smaller. If throwing money at this idea could make it work, they would have done so
 
hey
only reason is rotary valves are banned in just about every class of racing except race boats which is what the old holden grey engine was used in and some speedway.
also banned are rotary engines in moto and f1gp and lemans.
can you think what a 3l rotary dkm type whould go like hell a 14Cin one is 1950 made 17hp at 48000rpm and that was the first rotary built :shock:
but yes the tech expense leaves it out of out budget's die to f1/moto not able to use it or any drag catorgory's so cant be perfected with cost no option people who then make there own later on.
only engine this might be cost effective on whuld be the small block chevy.
drift
 
It may be a dumb question but, why are all these things banned from big time racing? How many innovations have been bread from racing. But now it seems that when something really radical crops up and smokes the competition... It's banned!!!

As far as fitting the cam drive on and still having it fit in the engine bay, make it fit! If me and my little bro can cram a 460 into a tiny little Ranger a few extra inches wont hurt. It would be well worth the effort if the thing works as well as claimed.

They have the bike sceduled for release some time in '07 so maybe we can get a hint of some of the potential. And the industrial market it taking note of this thing. Huge generators and such. There is considerably more cash flow in that than aftermarket auto parts, even for the 350's. :(
 
hey
basicly some small team comes up with something like that smokes the comp all the rich teams go to the bodies and say its against the sprit of the sport and if you dont outlaw it we all walk.
the engine whouldent be higher just longer at least 2/3in.
rotary valves rev hard and go well but have major drama sealing.
but desiel is where they wana be and a company has made one for cummins signiture truck engine not a lot of power increase but oil change's go way out to 1000+hrs thats a lot longer on the road then off and when a reco head for a cat is worth 5g a lot of fleet companies might consider a 10g head thats keeps them on the road longer between service's a worth while investment.
that being said cat is working on a puematic valve system for there truck engine's along with hyrolic systems.
drift
 
Yep. Sainty Speedworks got their nose rubbed in it a few years back with their billet 3 valve OHC alky motor.

Various drag race bodies flew over to look at it, went back with their notes and legislated the motor out of competition. :roll: That put a lot of Australian noses out of joint. :evil:
 
A little reality.

In drag racing, non stock based engine are making more HP than the chassis, driver and strips can handle. Serious talk about engine down sizing. If any thing is being restricted it is due to safety and the danger that increased HP would cause. Hey, mid 4 sec quarter mile how much more HP do you want. Today top fuel runs are point, click, shoot, pray ----------.

NASCAR, IRL, etc are no longer car racing but now just entertainment, comparing drivers in car as close to identical as possible. Got nothing to do with new technology or developing new technology.

FI and MotoGT, both series of racing are based on max displacement limit and minimum weight allowed. The rotary valve system would not be light compared to desomo or pneumatic valve systems. If it did make more HP would it more than the weight increase.

But again back to auto manufactures. No limit, no restrictions and sales competition dictates that the most efficient streetable design gets built. So where are the Ford, Toyota, Nissan, GM, DMC rotary valve engines?
It is not a matter of copyrights or patents the designs has been around way to long, 90+years. Drive system basically the same as a DOHC, seals Mazda can show you how to do that.

The port throught the rotary valve shaft is NOT a parallel side tunnel but will be large entry and exit constricted in the middle to same size as valve opening. The air turblence inside the valve shaft can not aid air flow.

Twenty + years and they are just now about to release a street bike. :?

And I still want to see a 5.0 turning 14,000 rpm on gasoline.
 
Don't have the formula at hand put IIRC the stroke of the Ford 5.0 is such that piston speed at 14,000 rpm would be greater than the flame speed of gasoline.
:shock:
So guess the answer to how long is never. But back to claims made by people, are they ignoring basic physics thinking we are too stupid to know any better. Guess it like one of the rules of evidence "fruit of the poison tree is poison" A claim containing BS is then in itself BS.

What sucks is that the hype and BS merchants muddy the water for those really trying to come up with something. Same way with the conspiracy peddlers, confuses the issue to what is real, what is possible and what is pure BS.

Bad Saturday, knee joint gave out, can't work out side so I'm ranting, bets kicking the dog.
 
Tabrinn, I think one reason rotary valves were banned from racing is that guys found ways to turn them faster than crankshaft speed to get a supercharger effect.

Another reason might be that the people who run the sanctioning bodies are not imaginative mechanics and engine developers themselves and are intimidated by men who are. So they ban as much creativity as they can, turning open classes into nearly stock classes, ostensibly in the interest of keeping costs down. The funny thing is, the creative mechanics were already keeping their costs down by doing all or most of their own work, whereas many racers are basically just drivers, and have to have someone else build and tune their equipment. I was one of a few people working (successfully) to open up the rules in outboard racing in the late '60s/early '70s, and admit to strong opinions in this area.
 
8)

A couple years back some of the 2.3L turbo crowd at Stangnet called and talked to Coates about developing a aluminum coates valve head for the 2.3L 4 cylinder.

They were willing to develop and produce a batch of heads. IIRC price was I think over $6000 per head.

We said thanks, we'll have to get back to you.
 
I see no reason the Coates heads wouldn't work, at least for a while, until they got scored by FOD. You'd want to use the best filters and make sure they didn't get any leaks around them. I'd use Chevron gas with a smidgin of 2-stroke oil or Marvel Oil in it, and Delo 400 oil until the engine broke in, then switch to a good synthetic, and I'd make sure the mixture was right on to avoid carbon build-up. Water/methanol injection would help avoid carbon accumulations. If I were worried about the water harming the rotary valves, I might use a very little dose of soluable oil in it.

There are a lot of reasons that F-1 racers might not want these heads. That doesn't mean that they have no merit whatever. I can watch rotary valves of this kind working quite well on 60-70 year old Johnson and Evinrude outboard at any antique racing meet, on boats running 60-70mph.

You guys have failed to notice an opportunity here. If I were overloaded with money and knew I were going to live another thirty years, I'd buy a set of Coates heads right now, maybe several. I'd build whatever engine was needed to take the heads (383 Ch*vy, I suppose) and have the coolest engine at the local car shows. And in 20 or 30 years, long after this poor little company goes broke, as it surely will, I'd make gobs of money selling the heads on Ebay!!!
 
Anlushac11 said:
8)

"A couple years back some of the 2.3L turbo crowd at Stangnet called and talked to Coates about developing a aluminum coates valve head for the 2.3L 4 cylinder.

They were willing to develop and produce a batch of heads. IIRC price was I think over $6000 per head.

We said thanks, we'll have to get back to you."

Maybe they would agree to some sort of lisensing agreement to have an outside "foundry" make them? That should be considerably cheaper if enough heads could be sold, right?
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