Starter problems!

[TucsonHooligan]

I have a 64 Falcon with a 66 200, mated to what appears to be a 72 C4 tranny. I have the earlier style bellhousing attached to it with the high mount, 3 bolt starter. Problem is, the actual starter for a 72 C4 is a low mount I believe, and only a two bolt, assuming the auto parts store pulled the right one fore me. When I put my old starter in and crank it over, it sounds like cats in a blender. It has 9 teeth and was the same starter I used before this rebuild, with the only thing swapped out in the tranny being the torque converter, so I assume it has a different tooth count now. So what do I do? What year and what model do I need to ask for to get a three bolt starter with the correct tooth count? Or does my problem lie elsewhere? Please let me know if I didn't provide enough details to answer this question.

 

[80broncoman]

have you read this thread??
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66045
lots of info even if it is about a stick shift car.

Cat in a blender :rolflmao: That right there is funnnny .

 

[TucsonHooligan]

Ok, this is like a steering wheel on my crotch: its driving me nuts. I took the starter I had and did the machinists trick of marking the pinion teeth completely red and reinstalling the starter. Cranked it over a couple times and pulled it out. The outer diameter of the teeth had the marking rubbed off, making me think the pinion diameter is about a quarter inch too small. It's a 9 tooth pinion. I need the 3 hole high mount style, but i'm not sure what year I should be looking for, as all the later models I see are 2 hole low mount style. Once again, its a '66 200 motor with a '72 c4 tranny. Help! this is the last thing holding me up!

 

[bubba22349]

The outer diameter of the teeth had the marking rubbed off, making me think the pinion diameter is about a quarter inch too small. It's a 9 tooth pinion. I need the 3 hole high mount style, but i'm not sure what year I should be looking for, as all the later models I see are 2 hole low mount style. Once again, its a '66 200 motor with a '72 c4 tranny. Help! this is the last thing holding me up!

I wonder are you using the right flex plate (dia.) for the year of bell housing?

 

[TucsonHooligan]

Ah, crap. It has to be that then. Basically what I did was dropped the tranny and had it rebuilt, during which time the torque converter was replaced. What your telling me is they replaced it with a model that has a smaller O.D. on the flexplate? The starter I am using is the same one that was in there before I sent the thing for a rebuild, so really the only answer is that is the T.C. Please, oh please, if there is a god, tell me that theres a starter I can use that will fit the 3 hole high mount style AND will work with this style T.C. If I have to drop this tranny AGAIN, for the FIFTH time, I'm going to open a f%*&ing vein! Why would they give me a different one and cause me so much grief!?!? Arghhhhh!

 

[MPGmustang]

calm down, wait,

'cat's in a blender'... sounds familiar... I think I know this sound...

okay try this... before you tear it apart... run the starter but not start the car... basicly tap the starter, but don't crank the engine... listen if the starter is making the 'cat's in a blender sound' if so, the sping in the starter broke or is too weak... just replace the starter and DONT GO TO AUTOZONE (sry I have very evil feelings with them)

another thing when you take the starter out, look at the gear, what type is it... look at my pics to compare small vs fat, you want the smaller gear, and look at your teeth on the TQ make sure none are chewed... (okay maybe I'm just being paranoid because I recently went through this) the wrong gear could cause a bad sound...

and the last thing to check (maybe it should be the first) are the starter bolts tight? loose bolts would cause that problem, heck check the TQ with the inspection plate off, (check the teeth) and see of those bolts are loose...

fat vs small


small ................................ vs fat...

IIRC 2 bolts are for manual tran's, 3 bolt are for auto tran's

oh and the lower starter for the c4 is for the v8, 200's didn't have low starters until the 80's

Good luck!
Richard

 

[TucsonHooligan]

Starter bolts are tight, no issue there. I tested the starter unmounted and the gear come forward and spins, so that's not it either. I may have the the smaller diameter style which is why its not engaging correctly. So I must need that fatter one then, but what they pulled when I went to Checker (O'Reilly) only had 2 mounting bolts. Maybe it was the fact that the teenager working the counter misunderstood me and pulled one for a manual tranny. You wouldn't happen to have a part number for the fatter style one, or even a year and model I could ask for to get it? If I can avoid dropping this tranny again, it would work wonders for my mental health.

 

[MPGmustang]

the fatter chewed my ring gear, and that made me pull my tranny, notice the metal shavings and grounded gear in the fatter pic? you want the smaller one... the fatter one came from autozone, the smaller came from car-quest

I got a brand new starter (from car-quest) smaller gear, shiny, ect... I bolted it on (after replacing the ring gear/trans/ect...) and the it started just fine, then the starter wouldn't 'release' and go back into it's hole, some times the engine would run with the gear still engaged, i only had it on for a few days, once went around the corner before it disengaged...
I can 'pop' the ignition key just short enough and not have the engine run, with the previous (smaller) it would spin, and keep spinning until it lost momentum, the replament (smaller) starter doesn't do that, it stops quickly like it should, your 'cats in a grinder' could be the simple fact that your starter is not disengageing...

and the fatter gear, well it chewed right through my ring gear, I don't wish that on anyone.

again I'm only guessing as I'm not there... you should try (with the starter installed) to pop the iginition key and see if it makes the same sound. if so, simply replace it...

Honestly, I don't know if you need the fatter gear or the smaller gear... but I don't think you want an autozone gear...

 

[TucsonHooligan]

I took the starter I had and did the machinists trick of marking the pinion teeth completely red and reinstalling the starter. Cranked it over a couple times and pulled it out. The outer diameter of the teeth had the marking rubbed off, making me think the pinion diameter is about a quarter inch too small.

This is what I did. It's not even touching the gears, which makes me think I need one with a bigger pinion O.D. If I replace it with the same one, won't it just be too small again, creating the same problem? Do you think I should try with the same one again just to check, then move on to the one with the bigger pinion as a last resort?

 

[Frankenstang]

I don't have much experience with the C4's, but I would think (similar to manual trannies) that the flex plate (possibly including the torque converter) would be dependent upon the bellhousing date code. I would think you would want the flex plate and the starter to match the date code on the bellhousing...so if the bellhousing is the same as was used with the '72 C4 behind the 200, then the flex plate and starter should be matched to that application. Just my $.02...again from someone without much experience with the C4's. Maybe someone with more experience swapping the automatic BH, valve bodies, etc will chime in...sounds like you're real close to getting it on the road, good luck

 

[TucsonHooligan]

I've gone thru and checked all the stuff thats supposed to match this tranny with no luck. I took the starter to Oreilly and had them pull several from years ranging from '64 to '79, none of them were any different. The gears were all the same size (1 inch) and several of them from the 70's had the 2 mounting holes instead of the 3 I need. The flexplate is correct for the year tranny, and mated up perfectly to the motor, so what do I do now? I'm at my wits end with this. I literally just need to install the starter and crank it over, everything else is done. Does anybody have a part number or year and make I should ask for in order to get the one I need? I have one for a '66 auto and it doesn't work. Please help!

 

[chad]

"...Please help!..."
talk real nice to a transmission specialist?
(I tried 3 clutches on a 170 car engine some 1 stuffed in my bronk. Finally a tranny guy was able to help locate the correct one.)
Bring all the info (ring gear dimensions & tooth #), Tq converter info, C4 casing stampings (ID #s), and ask them for the correct starter? Test the starter for action(s) B 4 installation. Remove inspection plate, inspect ring gear for wear.

After all this try to observe the ring gear (flex plate is more correct)/starter interface to see how well they mate. (Hopefully it don't have a flywheel on it).

I can't think of anything else. Sometimes we create problems when modin that prts houses R unable to assist w/because (we have) no cross references are available for non-oem situations. Forms like this are a god send cuz other guys may have done what U wanna do & done it successfully.

Good luck, keep talkin, AND don't pull dat tranny again (yet)!!!

 

[80broncoman]

I have a question
Is the bellhousing, block plate, flex plate(ring gear) all from the same vehicle??
And I'd think you have tryed a starter for that vehicle??

 

[Frankenstang]

I've gone thru and checked all the stuff thats supposed to match this tranny...The flexplate is correct for the year tranny

...

Okay, I don't know alot about the C4's, but as I understand it there are different 'bellhousings' available.

I would think you need the date code off the 'bellhousing' as the valve bodies (aka rest of the tranny) is interchanable between different year 'bellhousings' IIRC...AFAIK bellhousing should dictate starter and flex plate/ring gear.

Did the 'bellhousing' and the rest of the tranny come as a package or acquired piecemeal, or have they been used togehter before?

I believe there is more than one flexplate available for the C4 behind the ford six...I believe you need the one that went with the 'date code' of the bell housing you have. The flex plate size and tooth count is going to locate the ring gear teeth to a particular location in the BH, that should match up with a particular starter...I'd still bet your flex plate may be the issue...wasn't there even a C4 where the ring gear was on the torque converter, or was that the cruis-o-matic :

For the starter, if push came to shove you could likely swap the nose cone over from the three bolt you have if the bendix is shot, or just replace the bendix gear.
FSP member 'Crosley' knows a good bit about automatics IIRC, you might even consider pm'ing him.

I could be way off, completely wrong....wouldn't be the first time, but still would think this is the key :idea:

I have the earlier style bellhousing attached to it with the high mount

You don't have a cruise-o-matic BH do you?....do those work together?Good luck!

EDIT: apologize for epic length here, and if I'm steering you completely wrong <flame on>...I'm sure there are other members with significant experience with the C4...surprised if your issue has not come up before. I'm just suggesting above cause it seems to make sense to me at least.