Supercharge a 4.9L six

[Anonymous]

Well, I just thought I would throw it out there and see what I can find. I have done a search but without sifting through 20 different threads, which may not directly lead me into the information in question, I thought if I asked the experts/professionals/the somewhat knowledgeable I coudl find my answer.

If I wanted to lets say Supercharge a 4.9L I-6 (EFI), what should I seek to do to the engine, and a few things to get to make this possible. Should I fabricate my own Intake manifold to sit it on top of? What do you think?

 

[inline300]

Should you make your own intake?

I guess if your hell bent on using a screw type supercharger.

How about a centrifugal supercharger, like procharger, vortech, etc.? Then you would need to make your own bracket to hold it to the engine and align it to the existing pulleys, or stack crank pulley?

Your gonna wanna find someone to either reprogram your stock computer or consider an aftermarket efi controller, or your gonna need a FMU (which isnt ideal but is common on aftermarket low boost kits) or some other trick to feed the engine more fuel under boost.

What should you do to the engine itself?

Reckon that depends on how much boost yer lookin to see. Your gonna want larger injectors and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, at the very least.

I used to have the names of a couple guys that have done centrifugal blowers on their efi 4.9 engines, if interested PM me. They posted on another forum, along time ago, so they may not respond.

In any case, your gonna apply the same principles to a 4.9efi build as you would any other ford efi engine.

I think your biggest hurdle will be the bracket, to hold the centrifugal unit to the engine, everything else can be sourced or remedied, by looking at what the aftermarket offered for similar year trucks with v8's.

 

[Anonymous]

If that's my biggest hurdle, then I have no problems. I can either make it myself, or have a friend make it. Depending on how strong we wanna make it, depends on how much time it would take. Which type of metal should I make my braket out of? I know I want to go screw type because of the even gain through the rpm range, and I hear centrifugal superchargers are alittle parasitic on the engine? That and I like the way the whipple looks . I expect to get around 15-17 psi, is there anything I should modify on the engine? Well, atleast that's what I have seen these superchargers put out.

 

[inline300]

I wonder how the parasitic losses compare to the screw type vs the centrifugal, as it works off the pulleys as well?


With the screw type, your definitely gonna have to get creative with the intake fabrication. I believe you would find a screw type supercharger designed for an efi application to be more ideal, as they seem to be shorter in height and give you a place to mount your throttlebody (from the side or rear of the unit) all nice and clean like. Maybe you could mount a couple m90's that everyone on this board keeps dreaming about.

With high boost like your describing, at the very least, your gonna need better pistons, rings, better head gasket (your gonna be shocked what this alone can cost).

Ideally, you find those that have done this and learn from their mistakes and Im sure they will be able to tell you the weak link.

Good luck

 

[wallaka]

The centrifugal is more efficient than the Roots or screw-type superchargers. That translates into less parasitic loss. The screw-types are more efficient than the traditional Roots (such as the M90) as well. Since they are positive-displacement, they also offer more power low in the rev range than the centrifugals do.

The centrifugal supercharger's flow charts look like an exponential curve. This means to get good amounts of flow at lower rpm's, they will push way too much at higher rpm levels. I think they would be OK on an engine that already has good low-end torque but needs help at the top. Like the 300.

 

[StrangeRanger]

...unless you want more power at those low RPMs for towing.

 

[Anonymous]

The thing I know about the whipple, is that I can easily find a throttle body off an 01-03 ford escape with an opening of 60MM, but would the throttle cable setup right on a 1992 ford f150? I know all that could possibly get alittle pricey(pistons, etc.). Once they are on, there would be nothing but fun. Would I have to custom fab my own intake tho? I could probably walk up to my buddy with the gaskets and ask him to make me one with so much of a hieght, but the thing is, would it be easier or possible to mod an existing intake manifold or just fab one to get it to sit right on top? That and I would owe him pretty much a keg . I could even custom make my own hood with a kick arse hood scoop, and get the intake to sit at the opening. You could be suprised what a person with military training on fiberglas can do, along with a guy who did that sort of stuff for a couple of years from Japan...

 

[inline300]

If you use a whipple or anything besides a centrifugal blower, your gonna have to fab an intake or modify the existing one.

You could do what this guy has done, but you'd have to get rid of your heater box. Replace the carb with a throttle body, find a carb intake, make an adaptor base, add injectors.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery ... 06.520.390

You could mount it to the top of your existing intake, then your gonna have hood clearance issues and have to do some measuring to see how the pulleys align. Only other option is to mount it on the drivers side of the engine and come up with some kinda base that connects the blower unit to the throttlebody.

Im thinking a centriugal supercharger or turbo would be the best approach, thats my opinion though.

Whichever route you go, you should already be planning on how your gonna control the efi.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, it's already efi, so I have no problems there. They have manifolds for centrifugal superchargers? I can have a buddy make me an intake all I gotta hand him would be the gaskets so he could get the manifold to match up, with measurements and all. I really don't have a problem getting things fabricated, and I won't miss my heater box if I have to get rid of it.

 

[wallaka]

A centrifugal has a tubular discharge so it is super-easy to hook up. It's basically the compressor side of a turbo.

Hoses are used to connect it to the intake tract. They are generally plumbed directly to the throttle body or into an intercooler.
Most Roots and screw-type superchargers have an irregularly shaped discharge orifice. A lot of the time they come already attached to a special intake manifold. Problem is, they don't make one for a 300, so you would have to fab one up, and that opens up a bunch of hood-clearance issues.

 

[StrangeRanger]

The "easy" way to hook up a Roots type blower might be to get a Cliffy or Offy C intake, weld up some pads on the runners and machine them into injector bosses. Then get a Roots blower that is designed to mount on a standard 4V carb flange. "All" you'd have to do then is work out the drive system, the support bracketry for the weight of the blower and to contain the drive loads. And re-program or replace your EEC-IV.

Piece of cake. Very expensive, very complicated cake :roll:

 

[inline300]

Well, it's already efi, so I have no problems there. They have manifolds for centrifugal superchargers?

Manifolds for centrifugal supercharger? No



Actually, even though its currently efi, efi is gonna be your second largest hurdle other than fabrication.

If you were talking centrifugal and even turbo to an even lesser degree, there are less than ideal ways to keep the stock efi.

With your whipple idea, your gonna have to build your own intake, this is gonna throw all the stock computer settings off, make some calls and see who supports your stock ecm, your gonna be suprised I think. You may find that a standalone controller is more ideal. Why I mentioned, you need to know what your gonna do about the efi now, as there is a high likelihood it will influence your ultimate decision on this project.

 

[SR_Crewchief]

Mumeral, if your really wanting to hold 15+ #'s of boost there are a host of other things your going to need to consider.

As has already been pointed out, your stock EEC-IV is Speed Density and is not programmed to handle positive manifold pressures. Your best bet is to convert to an aftermarket engine management system that using Mass Air Flow. Several are out there and most are fairly expensive.

The stock rotating assembly won't the stress your looking for. Forged pistons and connecting rods can be adapted from some V8 applications or custom made. There are some steel(forged) 300 cranks that might take the loads, but they are a difficult to find. Custom cranks can also be done. Nothing a heavy application of funds can't overcome, budget willing.

Valve train is a little easier to address. 300 specific parts are available (roller rockers, cams[mechanical, hydraulic, mechanical roller], pushrods, valves, springs, etc) but again mostly expensive.

With the cylinder pressures your looking at high strength head studs are required. Even then your probably going to be having head gasket issues. If there is an equivilant to the Cummins Marine head gaskets I haven't found them. (high boost [60+ psi] Cummins turbo diesels have habit of blowing HG's and the marine HG's tend to hold better)


Your looking at several thousand dollars to make a 300 reliable in the power range that 15-17 #'s of boost will produce. And that's before dealing with the rest of drivetrain much less the suspension and frame.

 

[inline300]

SR_Crewchief

Without creating havoc... ...all Im gonna say is this...you might wanna do some searching in regards to the stock 300 rods and cast crank.

Wideband and speed density (with a map sensor that reads positive pressure) would probably get the job done, potentially save some cash, if going aftermarket....of course Im thinking megasquirt.

With the right program, mass air or speed density for that matter, could be retrofitted from another ford vehicle (6 or 8 cylinder), obviously one that has a more supported ford ecm. Dont wanna use non-ford, thats just wrong.

 

[StrangeRanger]

I'd guess the stock rods are good to somewhere around 8 PSI or a little more. He's looking for twice that much.

The nodular crank on the other hand is nearly as good as a more expensive billet. Nodular can take a hell of a pounding.

 

[SR_Crewchief]

SR_Crewchief

Without creating havoc... ...all Im gonna say is this...you might wanna do some searching in regards to the stock 300 rods and cast crank.

Wideband and speed density (with a map sensor that reads positive pressure) would probably get the job done, potentially save some cash, if going aftermarket....of course Im thinking megasquirt.

With the right program, mass air or speed density for that matter, could be retrofitted from another ford vehicle (6 or 8 cylinder), obviously one that has a more supported ford ecm. Dont wanna use non-ford, thats just wrong.

Hey!! Just because we don't agree on various subjects doesn't mean we can't discuss them.

Federal Mogul lists remanned stock rods at 400hp. Personally, I'd want a wider safety margin with the torque that should come from that much boost. As SR points out, sub 10psi should be safe with sound stock rods.

Selection of engine management should probably be driven by the knowledge base of the builder. I was really just making a generalization that the stock SD EEC-IV can't handle the boost by itself. There are a lot of possibilities out there.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, maybe I should try for something else. my wqife won't let me spend thoussands on a project. What should I try for, if I wanted to lets say tow, but have a nice amount of jump from a stop. I really don't care for the top end, it would just get me in trouble, but I can still accelerate, anyway, what should I go for? The mroe an dmore I find out, the less and less it seems possible for me to be able to build a 15+ PSI 300.

 

[SR_Crewchief]

The wife factor strikes again. Welcome to that club.

how health is your engine currently? Do you have indications that you need new internal parts?(rings, bearings, etc)

Define a budget for your build. Give yourself at least a 10% pad for the unexpected, they will happen at that's probably low.

First priority in the build budget is basic engine health(bearings, rings, etc as needed)

Second priority is help the engine breath. Start with cam and valve train.

As your budget allows, expand from there. Remember that anything that helps the engine run smoother will usually yield better performance.

 

[inline300]

Im not against discussion, sometimes its futile, I still think it might be worth your time to look over earlier rod discussions, your call.



My opinion, never start with the camshaft. The camshaft is the mechanical conductor that ties everything together. Ideally, you get a camshaft, once you've determined how you want to modify the longblock, axle gear ratios, tranny, tranny stall, etc. etc., head flow plays a role in this and you should really get someone that knows what the hell they are talking about to help you pick a cam, possibly custom...and obviously, all variables are unknown until they are in front of you. Besides, you may change your objective, then your stuck with a worthless metal yardstick, heaven forbid you already installed it. Given limited efi builds, not ideal IMO to buy a cam and build around it, as the results are a big unknown.

Selection of engine management should probably be driven by the knowledge base of the builder. I was really just making a generalization that the stock SD EEC-IV can't handle the boost by itself. There are a lot of possibilities out there.

I realized that, and it was apparent, so my post complimented yours with possibilities.



Mumeral

Time to embrace the 4.9 for what it is. Dont get frustrated, instead of thinking, here and now, think long term, make a plan, save the cash and go for it when the time is right, youll be much happier then, as right now, you are likely to do little things here and there and experience small intervals of disappointment.

Good luck

 

[addo]

Weighing in here with a slightly different viewpoint on cams. They can be swapped reasonably easily, and a documented grind and usage (hours/miles) is probably going to secure some residual value if it turns out not to suit.

Certainly, do the research, make the best guess, but it can be like moving stuff around in a room - you're not quite able to determine how it will suit until you try it.

Cheers, Adam.