The next power(?)plant - running!

80Stang

80Stang

Well-known member
Ok, just posting here the next engine that's going to power my daily driver, if you find something wrong just let me know:

Block '80 200
- decked to zero
- rods done
- ARP rod bolts
- Tempo flattop pistons +.030 overbore
- Comp Cams 260H
- Comp timing set
- balancing

Head '80 E0...
- new std valves with backcut
- new bronze guides
- porting done the best I could, pockets, exhausts all the way & valve unshrouding
- 60's rockers (adjustable)
- Comp valve springs
- milling, goal is 53cc chamber
- 2V adapter straight to the log
- Autolite 2100 1.14 or 1.21, or Holley 2300/350

My gasket is a Victor Rentz (0.045 compressed), this recipe should do CR 10:1.
 
I think a 350 will be fine. CR is 10:1 by my calc. Might be a little high for a daily driver. Falcon 6 Perfromance CR calculator says 160 NHP assuming 85% efficiency at 5000RPM (260 cam should be good to 5000). Overall, I think this combo will make a very good driver. Will also be quicker 0-60 and 1/4 mile than stock HIPO 289.

Steve
 
Howdy All:

According to Holley, the #2300s are rated at 3" hg, the same rating standard as all one barrels and most two barrel carbs. Their four barrels are rated at 1.5" hg. This was fairly recent info for me and the source was the Holley tech line.

For cfm comparison to a 1 or 2 barrel, You would have to multiply a 4 barrel carbs cfm rating by 1.4. For example, a #8007 Holley 4 barrel rated at 390 cfm at 1.5" hg would have a rating of 546 cfm at 3" hg.

A 500 cfm #2300 2 barrel could be compared to other 4 barrel carbs by dividing it's 1.5" hg rating by dividing by 1.4. Compared to 4 barrels a 500 cfm rating would come out to 357 cfm.

As usual, the devil is in the details. It is good to be able to compare, apples to apples.

Adios, David
 
80Stang, that sounds like a lot of compression for a daily driven 200. Are you sure your petrol octane will support this?
 
We have here 95E and 98E, both unleaded. I know the ratings differ from US ratings. At least 98E will do for 10.0, people run 10.5-11 plus CR in V8's and it is ok. Well, with 9.5-9.6 it would not make much of a difference in power, I guess.

Forgot to mention the exhaust; I have FSPP single out and the rest will be 2,5" with one Dynomax.

Carbs; at the moment I have one 1.14, one 1.21 and two Holleys (I guess they are 350s). I have one overhaul kit for an Autolite at the moment, so I think I'll rebuild the 1.21 first as I have all the choke parts for it (1.14 lacks some parts and most important, the idle mix screws are missing). The bible says the 1.21 has a low speed bog (?) and poor mileage, any more explanation/experience with this matter?
 
Howdy Teppo:

We just upgraded Dennis' hot 200 from a 1.08 to a 1.21 this spring and loved the results. It will take some tuning with idle screws, float levels, pump shot and jets, as well as timing, but it is a great upgrade and not at all too much carb for an engine like you are putting together. We are learning more about what works with what all the time. Our original assessment was with a relatively stock 200, with the carb mounted via a funnel adapter.

Check the throttle bore diameter to determine size on the Holleys. A 350 measures 1.375" while the 500 throttle plates measure 1.69". The 350 is comparable in performance to the Autolite 1.21.

If you're at sea level 10:1 may be pushing the limit. If you haven't already bought the flat-topped pistons consider going with the small dish stock type replacement pistons instead. They will be little cheaper. All else being equal, a dished piston will make more HP in a wedge shaped combustion chamber engine then a flat-top or domed piston. They will be more resistant to detonation and pre-ignition too. Also take the time to polish all the parts that make up the combustion chamber.

Be sure to re-establish the oil transfer slot on the head surface after milling. It is the kidney shaped grove near the back of the head. This slot transfers oil to the rocker arm shaft.

Be sure to clen the head bolt holes before assembly and use hardened washers on the head bolts.

Adios, David
 
Teppo, with that much compression you need more cam with the fuel we have in the states unless you use a water injection setup. the 260 cam is very mild. If your vehicle is a stick shift by all means put in more duration. That will kill off detonation problems. Its a fine line for the right combination. Hope this helps. william
 
I've got all the parts listed. The flat-tops are mated with polished rods w/ARPs and so on. The block is bored, new cam bearings are there, the grank is ground -.010 but the block is not yet decked. The porting is started and underway, as is the 2V adapter installation. Valve&seat job, bronze guide inserts and the head milling is to be done as soon as the new valves are here.

With the engine master kit I ordered an extra set of lifters&springs just in case I decide to install something else and sell that cam away (it is easier for the buyer as he gets all you need at the same time, well, the timing set would make it perfect for a cam change). This related to a former idea of being able to go to turbo afterwards, without touching the block and just playing around the head. The Comp is not ok for turbo, so I looked at a Crane cam suitable for a mild turbo application. By having the flat-tops and by decking the block, the CR goes too high for turbo so I decided it'll be a non-turbo, and let the CR be as high as practical for the purpose of the car. I understand now that it is better to go with one idea to the very end, and the high-CR way was started with the flat-tops. Let's take full advantage of this way.

Keep in mind that this is a daily driver (and obviously somewhat hobby car), driven daily 35 miles to work and the same back, all around the year. We have cold winter here, it may get to -30C sometimes. I want to keep MPG in mind as gasoline is so expensive here, 1.4USD per liter at the moment :(

If you have a recommendation for more optimal cam/CR combo, let it come out. It just needs to get the cam ordered from the other side of the globe...and maybe springs...and...more money envolved. If it is possible to achieve 150hp area with Comp cam&springs I'll stick to those. If there is notably more power available with another cam selection and without ruining MPG, I'm glad to have info about that too.
 
About the Holleys I have: one is list 4412, so it is a 2300 500cfm. The other one is list 7508-1, I could not find info on that one (checked Holley and I tried to Google for it too...). It's throttle plates are little less than 1,5", so I assume it is a 350.

Wsa111, this car has manual tranny (SROD) and the power train end up to a 8.8 trac locking rear-end. BTW, it's ratio is 3.08 so someday I might consider 3.50 or such.

BTW, I drove my car at a race track a few weeks ago (I won one 270hp V8 :twisted: ), and that sure was not a place for an SROD. It is like a 5-speed unit without 3rd. It is interesting to see how it takes +60% the power of a std engine.

Your recommendation for cam/CR combo? Anyone?
 
Got some more advise about a little high CR, so changing goal to around 9.5-9.6. It needs chambers at 56cc.

Also changed plans for the cam, now Mike's 274 single pattern cam seems interesting.

I just measured deck height and come up with .030 in no.1 and a little more (.032) in no.6, may be an error in mesuring. So I'm milling .030 off the deck.
 
Finally the project is turning to final. This is what it developed to:

Block '80 D8 200cid
- decked to zero
- 2.3L Tempo HSC flattop pistons +.030 overbore
- con rods polished / honed / blasted & "ARPed"
- FSPP 274 single pattern cam
- Comp Cams timing set
- balancing

Head '80 E0
- std size valves with backcuts
- bronze guides / K-liners
- porting done the best I could; pockets, guide ends, exhausts polished all the way & some valve unshrouding & chamber polishing
- Comp Cams valve springs
- Ford 4.0-V6 retainers & locks
- milling; 9.5 CR measured
- 2V adapter straight to the log
- Autolite 2100 1.14
- Clifford port divider
- FSPP single out headers
- 2,5"/2,25" exhaust

I added MSD 6A & Ford Motorsports SVO Ultra Coil to take care of ignition. Also changing to electric fan.

Need to paint the block & head and then drop the package in. I might publish some pics of head /others if somebody's interested. This will also be dynoed in the summer.
 
That 300cfm Autolite might be a little bit too small, don't you think? Should be pretty good on daily usage, but if max hp is wanted it could use more carb right? Anyway, what size if jets do you think I need for the 1.14 for starters? I've got 51s, 53s, 54s and some huge at 68-70 range on my 4100 4V...

I'll prepare at least one of these for the dyno to be swapped for another run: Autolite 2100 1.21 (351cfm), Holley 350cfm or Holley 500cfm. For this project I bought most 2V carbs that were for sale here, so I have all these, plus the rebuilt 1.14 I'm going to use plus one 1.14 uncomplete.
 
It rattles, it rolls, it stalls, it whines but it finally BURNS FUEL!!! This is a warning to everybody, it is so easy to spend 6-8 months of calendar time to build a powerplant. But hey, having so much time & money invested you are not going to complain about it - no way. Even if there are some "adjustments" needed.

This build up generated a setup that seems decades more complicated than the previous one, which actually was just a milled head, headers, and a mild cam. Now we are learning to tune, but do it the easy way; seems like vacuum & A/F meters sitting side by side take truck loads of quesswork out ot the procedure.

I'm driving it easy now, breaking in. It feels even more important now when the A/F ratios are not good yet. So far I'm a little surprised how come the engine feels at least as torguey at low speeds as the previous engine, even though the cam is way different.

Performance somehow lurks behind the curtain, just waiting for the adjustments to be made right.

AArgh, what am I chatting here all alone, go to sleep...
 
Good deal. Keep us informed. I am for one very interested in how it turns out as I'm building a 250 as we speak. You say it feels about the same as the previous set up as far as torque? Maybe it needs time to loosen up and get tuned.

Nice to hear you got er going.
 
Regarding torgue I thought I'd loose at low rpm's but feels like I didn't, maybe even have gained. The assumption was due to the new cam, which is FSPP 274SDS. The previous engine had Comp 260H.
 
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