the same as D.U.I.?

[AzCoupe]

I don't know how you all come to the conclusion that the DUI doesn't make more power than the DSII. Have any of you purchased one and dyno tested it verse the DSII? Or is this just a conclusion you make, merely becasue you think it doesn't? Do you have any data to back up what you state?

Between Classic Inlines and Performance Distributors, it has been dyno tested several times, and it has always made more power than the DSII. Nobody really understands why, but it does. I plan to do some dyno testing in the next couple of weeks, and will add the DUI to the testing just to prove it once more. We'll be dyno testing a stock 1V over the 2V via an adaptor, so dropping in a DUI will be no problem.

 

[primal1]

why not make it more interesting and dyno one of daves distributors in the mix.

 

[Bort62]

I don't know how you all come to the conclusion that the DUI doesn't make more power than the DSII. Have any of you purchased one and dyno tested it verse the DSII? Or is this just a conclusion you make, merely becasue you think it doesn't? Do you have any data to back up what you state?

Between Classic Inlines and Performance Distributors, it has been dyno tested several times, and it has always made more power than the DSII. Nobody really understands why, but it does. I plan to do some dyno testing in the next couple of weeks, and will add the DUI to the testing just to prove it once more. We'll be dyno testing a stock 1V over the 2V via an adaptor, so dropping in a DUI will be no problem.

Again Mike, it's not a question of dynoing a car with a DSII and then dropping in a DUI. That will demonstrate that that particular DUI makes more power than that particular DSII, but says nothing about the relative merits of the two designs.

There needs to be much tighter control over all of the variables to be able to make that claim.

IE, what coil was used w/ the DSII, what wires, what ignition module, etc. Was the total advance the same in both tests? If you can control all of these things (and probably some I haven't thought of) and you still have one design performing better than the other, then there is still merely a suggestion that it is superior. In order to truly have confidence, one must do numerous tests on many different engines in different operating environments and look for trends. Unfortunately, this is not really feasible in this sort of circumstance. If you don't have a hypothesis as to why it should make more power, it is going to be very difficult to prove empirically that it just does (short of testing it in 5-6 different cars, which can be cost prohibitive). There are so many variables involved that what makes more power in one setup can very well make less in another. We have all seen this happen. In the realm of automotive testing to ever prove that one item (of similar design/approach) makes more or less power than other is extremely difficult. It is much more reasonable to merely state that the DUI (in this case) is capable of making X power, independent of whatever the DSII can do. That is something you can actually prove.

There seems to be a trend developing here in that those of us who do system testing for a living expect a much more rigorous test approach than those who don't. I've seen way too many tests done that really appeared to show one thing, but after being subjected to a more rigorous test have shown something completely different. It's my job, and if I jump to conclusions and don't cover my bases, I look like a fool. The people I have to take MY test conclusions to ask very hard questions. Nothing more embarrassing than having your boss point out a huge hole in your test plan and why all of your data is invalid or at best incomplete.

My conclusion is based on a understanding of how the two systems operate. There is no reasonable expectation that one should make more power than the other. If you have test data that is to the contrary, then clearly there is something that one of us is missing. Either there was something about the testing that was done that wasn't well controlled, or there is something about the way it all works that I don't (we don't, because you yourself stated that no one really knows why it makes more power) understand.

Let's find out which of those two it is. I would be more than willing to work with you to develop a rigorous test plan that would at least offer us a suggestion as to which was the better performer (if any).

And Mike, it's not that I (or those that share my POV) are picking on you and your products necessarily. I have the exact same "complaints" about information posted by most automotive aftermarket companies. How many of us really believes that adding Clifford port divider is worth the HP they claim? Or how about a flowmaster muffler, etc.

The difference here is that you are actually responsive (Can you imagine a rep from Holley coming on a message board to defend their products? Yeah right...) - and that is awesome because it allows the information out there about your products to be much more accurate, which gives us all a higher confidence in them.

 

[Anonymous]

Now this is just my opinion and its pointed at no one in particular......

If people want these products tested then maybe they should be shuckin out the money themselves?

I've been to the track 6 times this year testing out the aluminum head and 4 Bbl carb/intake setup.

It costs me on average of $100 a night to go 153 mile round trip, entry fees and supper and that doesnt even include the wear and tear on my truck and car. Now granted its a lot of fun but the cost is still there and I dont necessarily have to share the results with anyone except for Mike but I chose to share the results with everyone at this time.

Thats $600 this year alone on testing and sharing the results with you guys.

You guys endlessly debate the pros and cons of the DUI.....I had the DS II setup with a MSD blaster coil and the MSD plug wires, MSD box and switched to the DUI setup. If you buy everything new the price is the same.

Out of my Summit book,

MSD 6A box $184.40
MSD adaptor $17.50
MSD coil $44.90
MSD plug wires $51.90

That equals $298.79 plus shipping for the MSD stuff alone.

Then figure the distributor, rotor, adaptor & cap. I paid a bit over $130.00 from Car Quest for this stuff myself.

The cost is really, really close to each other. Then whats a custom distro curve cost?

Maybe the people that criticize should start testing parts also and sharing the results with rest of the group as well??

I fail to understand why it should be up to a select few to spend all the money then have others that spend little or nothing stand back and criticize.....

Later,

Doug

 

[Bort62]

Maybe the people that criticize should start testing parts also and sharing the results with rest of the group as well??


Doug

I don't have any reason to spend money to either prove or disprove any of this stuff. I'm not going to spend my money to prove Mike's parts are better, nor do I care enough to spend my money to prove they aren't.

I'm not invested in any way. Doesn't mean I'm not "allowed" to point out when something hasn't been throughly tested. It's not like I'm trying to prove anyway wrong.

I will also point out that, while MSD + DSII stuff is about the same cost of the DUI, the MSD + DSII is a completely different setup.

Not only is it multiple spark discharge, but it is also capacitive discharge (which the DUI is not). So that is comparing apples to oranges in the extreme.

My DSII system cost me $123.00 using all new parts. It offers all of the same functionality as the DUI.

Is one better than the other? I don't know - I know of no reason to expect any difference between the two.

 

[l3n]

Then whats a custom distro curve cost?

I'm strictly an amateur, but that has always been where I assumed the superiority came from. Even if the overall technological capabilities are the same, the DSII was curved by Ford with a different objective in mind that the folks at Davis. At least I've always thought so. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming the DUI is a better unit, (I have no idea if either is actually superior, but I'm willing to trust the folks who know more than I do, and they seem to back the DUI) Could the DSII be curved to match the DUI's out-of-the-box performance? Probably. But do I have the time, tools, or knowhow to recurve a dizzy to obtain the maximum possible output? No way in hell.

And yes, every car is different and requires a different curve. But since both are mass produced units, that seems irrelevant. Both were curved with a target baseline in mind, presumably to obtain the most performance out of as large a number of vehicles as possible. Unless you can recurve a dizzy yourself and accurately test the results until you get it just right, you're forced to either use the Ford specs, or the custom curve designed by Davis. My bet is that the Davis curve produces more oomph.

But like I said, I'm just guessing...

 

[Anlushac11]

8)

I do not feel that we require ISO certified lab techniques and documentation to prove Mike's results.

Mike says that he took distributor A out and with no further mods to engine dropped in Distributor B and saw a difference on the dyno.

I for one dont really care if Mike does not have a 40 page report detailing what the differences were.

If Mike says he saw a 13hp increase in the system he was testing then I believe he saw a 13hp increase.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe the people that criticize should start testing parts also and sharing the results with rest of the group as well??


Doug

I don't have any reason to spend money to either prove or disprove any of this stuff. I'm not going to spend my money to prove Mike's parts are better, nor do I care enough to spend my money to prove they aren't.

Then why keep stirring up shit when your not going to spend the money and you dont care anyway on the outcome?

I will also point out that, while MSD + DSII stuff is about the same cost of the DUI, the MSD + DSII is a completely different setup.

I'm well aware of the differances between the 2.....Unlike you I HAVE ran all the setups: Stock distro with Pertronix, DSII with blue strain relief box, DSII with MSD and the DUI I'm currently running).

I'm just trying to understand why you keep putting down stuff. Mikes dyno tested and track tested his products and posted the results. If you doubt the results the burden of proof is up to YOU to disprove them.

Since thats not going to be the case then why continue?

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, just trying to understand your motivation?

 

[Bort62]

Then why keep stirring up doggie doo when your not going to spend the money and you dont care anyway on the outcome?

Since thats not going to be the case then why continue?

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, just trying to understand your motivation?

Look, if someone from Clifford came on here and said "our distributor gives a 10 HP increase over the DSII" there would be all sorts of skepticism. I share that skepticism regardless of the manufacturer.

I am only pointing out that just because the DUI made X more power than the DSII in a particular situation doesn't mean the DUI will always (or even mostly, who knows?) make more power than the DSII - especially since there is no reason that it should. The "curve" is not a reason because at peak HP all you are dealing with is total advance, which is independent of any curve.

It would be another situation entirely if someone could say "The DUI should make more power because of __________" but no one can say that, because it is essentially identical in function to every other electronic distributor out there.

I'm not stirring anything, merely pointing out facts.

Overall I think Mike's stuff is great - there just happens to be two products which I think are potentially over hyped - the DUI and that whole Pony disaster. It's nothing anyone needs to get all upset about.