All Small Six Triple Weber DCOE or Supercharger?

[StarDiero75]

Howdy Guys,

My aussie head should be getting here in the next 2 weeks and I'm trying to plan my end game here. Here's what i got planned for the head:

1. 1.75 or 1.80 intake port flow valves. 1.5 exhaust port flow valve
2. Light intake port to smooth curves and rid of flashings, etc
3. Mild exhaust port since this is now the choking point
4. 1.65 Yella Tera Roller rockers
5. Maybe something like a Schneider 131H. But with the aussie head I think I should look into a custom grind. Any recommendations here? It is a daily, but I'm ok with a little lope like a 108 or a 110 LSA. But this will ultimately be determined by my intake situation.... (I currently have a 84 SVO T5 and a 3.25posi 8" rear.)
6. I am contemplating going to a DSII unit over my DUI since I think the DSII unit is a better unit. Plus the DUI is massive and ugly.
7. I would like to be able to run 87 octane now that 92 is $4+ here in WA, but I am kinda ok continuing to run 92. What would be a good CR? This I know will also be based on my intake situation.

-The SC I would plan on running is a Paxton centrifugal from Paradise Wheels. They have the entire kit and it runs up to 8psi. Supposedly it'll increase the HP by 115hp. Will come with modified Autolite 2100. Approx $3000 for kit.
-The triple weber sidedraft kit comes with three 45DCOE's (or 48's if I want them), linkage, everything I need to mount and send it from Australia Weber Performance. Approx $2300 for kit.

So what are the pros and cons of the triple sidedrafts and the supercharger on a mostly daily car? Syncing the webers I heard can be a pain but how often do they go out of sync? How's reliability of both? Gas mileage between the two? HP difference between the two?

Feel free to comment on head mods as well. This is in a 65 Ranchero in case we got new people.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[pmuller9]

I do not recommend a ball drive supercharger.
The ball drive is not as reliable as the later model non-ball drive centrifugal superchargers and were never meant to be driven over 7 psi of boost.

8 psi of boost is a 50% increase in power so to get an extra 115 hp the engine would need to start with 230 hp. Bad advertising.

You will want more cam than a 131H. Don't waste the potential of the head.
Discuss it with Jerry at Schneider Cams

 

[65coupei6]

I think it will be more in the range of 80hp with the supercharger.

On a daily car I would just do a Holley 350 for reliability. Good luck tuning the 3x Weber's or wearing out the super charger. Just my opinion.

 

[jaan-e]

Webers all the way!
With a god linkage, they don't go out of sync all of a sudden.
Check out " extacy's " posts on Webers and camshaft.
The sound of the webers is unbeatable!
I'we brought them Chines coppys named Fajs. God or bad? Only time Will tell..

 

[powerband]

Keeping added power reliable long-term, or taking it to the limit is the question for you. Hard to match forced induction power gains with NA possibilities although cost is usually the bottom line. Forced Induction is likely much more cost effective if comparing relative power gains.

In "Turbocharging" (MacInnes) there is vintage ad touting a bolt-on draw through turbo setup for 250, yielding above twice WHP at full boost and almost doubling power by 3000 RPM. Ad doesn't include data on how long this added power will last.



Tri-Power 250 Comet with extensive/pensive NA build has run consistently both carving mountain roads and occasional 1/4 launches over 5K rpm for over ten years. Turbo project 250 Maverick with BOP derived draw thu setup ran awesome for a few weeks until the OEM pistons lost rings at @ 2 bar.

Supercharger on the Maverick 250 currently adds available power with no spooling-up and close monitoring of AFR's , ignition timing and boost - permit OEM engine internals. Boost is basically RPM/Throttle position dependent due to Blow-Off valve relief in charge tube. Boost is minimal until throttle is opened and isn't used at cruise.

There is the added expense of a Supercharger vs Turbo, but no 'hot-zone' under the hood and with boost ref' 'modern' ignition control boxes, real time AFR meters and plenty of forum experienced help more forced induction projects should be encouraged.







BTW - The Holley 2300 2bbl is likely easiest and most inexpensive to re-work. Parts and experienced mods are readily availble including boost ref'd power valves. NA 250 ran great with 4412/500 CFM on a tri-port plenum, SC'd 250 started with the 4412/500CFM but AFR monitoring proved 7448/350CFM was better choice. The tri-power Holley 1904 carb's are each a project of their own...

have fun

 

[StarDiero75]

I do not recommend a ball drive supercharger.
The ball drive is not as reliable as the later model non-ball drive centrifugal superchargers and were never meant to be driven over 7 psi of boost.
8 psi of boost is a 50% increase in power so to get an extra 115 hp the engine would need to start with 230 hp. Bad advertising.

You will want more cam than a 131H. Don't waste the potential of the head.
Discuss it with Jerry at Schneider Cams

Really? That's upsetting to hear. Based on what you said, the 80hp estimate from 65Coupe is probably right. How much hp increase would you expect the triple webers to add?

Ok, that's what i was curious about. I'll give him a call and see what he thinks. He'll probably want to do a custom grind.

 

[StarDiero75]

Keeping added power reliable long-term, or taking it to the limit is the question for you. Hard to match forced induction power gains with NA possibilities although cost is usually the bottom line. Forced Induction is likely much more cost effective if comparing relative power gains.

In "Turbocharging" (MacInnes) there is vintage ad touting a bolt-on draw through turbo setup for 250, yielding above twice WHP at full boost and almost doubling power by 3000 RPM. Ad doesn't include data on how long this added power will last.



Tri-Power 250 Comet with extensive/pensive NA build has run consistently both carving mountain roads and occasional 1/4 launches over 5K rpm for over ten years. Turbo project 250 Maverick with BOP derived draw thu setup ran awesome for a few weeks until the OEM pistons lost rings at @ 2 bar.

Supercharger on the Maverick 250 currently adds available power with no spooling-up and close monitoring of AFR's , ignition timing and boost - permit OEM engine internals. Boost is basically RPM/Throttle position dependent due to Blow-Off valve relief in charge tube. Boost is minimal until throttle is opened and isn't used at cruise.

There is the added expense of a Supercharger vs Turbo, but no 'hot-zone' under the hood and with boost ref' 'modern' ignition control boxes, real time AFR meters and plenty of forum experienced help more forced induction projects should be encouraged.







BTW - The Holley 2300 2bbl is likely easiest and most inexpensive to re-work. Parts and experienced mods are readily availble including boost ref'd power valves. NA 250 ran great with 4412/500 CFM on a tri-port plenum, SC'd 250 started with the 4412/500CFM but AFR monitoring proved 7448/350CFM was better choice. The tri-power Holley 1904 carb's are each a project of their own...

have fun

I didn't think much to how the odds are it won't last as long as NA. I do want this motor running for a long time lol. Being that this is a semi daily car, it needs to be fairly reliable. I think you all are talking me into the webers here.

On another note, I was collecting holley glass bowls to do a triple 1904 at some point. They definitely look great. I got just 1 on my 63 Futura (I pulled it off a 49 F1) and that has been by far one of the best carbs I've used so far. Very reliable. Once you get the bowl to not leak its great lol.

 

[StarDiero75]

I think it will be more in the range of 80hp with the supercharger.

On a daily car I would just do a Holley 350 for reliability. Good luck tuning the 3x Weber's or wearing out the super charger. Just my opinion.

So I currently have a 350 street avenger which I planned on running until I decided to make a change. Here's a question too, is there anything to be gained by having a 390cfm 4bbl with vacuum secondaries? I've thought about this too, this being the 2nd cheapest thing to do besides just keep my 350 on it.

 

[StarDiero75]

Webers all the way!
With a god linkage, they don't go out of sync all of a sudden.
Check out " extacy's " posts on Webers and camshaft.
The sound of the webers is unbeatable!
I'we brought them Chines coppys named Fajs. God or bad? Only time Will tell..

I saw your post about the log head you cut up. That was pretty slick. How's it running so far? What really causes the carbs to go out of sync? Because I have a 1977 Honda GL1000 with 4 carbs and have never had issues keeping them in sync.

 

[pmuller9]

What intake manifold do you presently have?

 

[StarDiero75]

What intake manifold do you presently have?

For the Oz head, It'll be the factory 2bbl intake with a stromberg-holley adapter

 

[pmuller9]

Are you rebuilding the short block?

 

[jaan-e]

The engine is not done yet, other things got in the way. Block and crank is ready for The machine shop. Leaning towards the flat top Ausie pistons. Head needs to be flow tested for correct cam. New longer valves and guides to be ordered to..

 

[slowhoon]

Any time I see mention of the letters DCOE in a thread title I dive in to take a look.

There have been discussions in the past on this topic so I can recommend the following threads if only because I contributed and didn't come out looking dumb:

Weber DCOE?

As I'm still sitting in Spain waiting to get my mustang back in my hands, I'm trying to plan out my build and wanting to keep my stock engine. I know one thing for sure, I'll be saving up money to hopefully get an aluminum head from vintage in lines either for the next production or the one...

fordsix.com

(post #17 has some nice pictures)

and: https://fordsix.com/threads/triple-weber-dcoes.79657/

Cheers,
Alan.

 

[StarDiero75]

Are you rebuilding the short block?

So its been garage rebuilt already, but I'm not sure yet. Its done had new rod bearings, rings, and mains put in. I need to pull it 1 more time and replace the freeze plugs since the rear one behind the flywheel is leaking. Let's say hypothetically I rebuild it, in machine work and all, what should that roughly cost. I would like to do that but I know myself enough to know I will go all out, forged pistons ($550ish), 1JZ H beam rods ($750ish), ARP all the way around, probably not a crank girdle. But I figure if I'm gonna do it, don't half ass it. I do kinda take it easy on it since I know stock internals won't take 5k+ constantly, but I really want to push it. What do you think?

 

[StarDiero75]

Any time I see mention of the letters DCOE in a thread title I dive in to take a look.

There have been discussions in the past on this topic so I can recommend the following threads if only because I contributed and didn't come out looking dumb:

Weber DCOE?

As I'm still sitting in Spain waiting to get my mustang back in my hands, I'm trying to plan out my build and wanting to keep my stock engine. I know one thing for sure, I'll be saving up money to hopefully get an aluminum head from vintage in lines either for the next production or the one...

fordsix.com

(post #17 has some nice pictures)

and: https://fordsix.com/threads/triple-weber-dcoes.79657/

Cheers,
Alan.

That's a badass little 170 man. I am thankful i was able to find a Aussie 2V, but I've definitely paid for it at this point. Pushing $2700 after import and broker fees. But I feel that it's worth it at this point since it does not seem the Aluminum head is ever coming back. what's neat, is that weber/redline actually makes an intake and linkage kit for the 2V. Honestly, at this point I think I'm sold on the 3x2 webers. The supercharger is cool, but not for a mostly daily. Plus, even though minor, triple webers looks pretty impressive when you open the hood lol. Do I need to fab a heat shield between the exhaust and the carbs?

 

[pmuller9]

I know stock internals won't take 5k+ constantly, but I really want to push it. What do you think?

A 200 with a ported Aussie 2V head should make 200 naturally aspirated hp and still be very street worthy.
You are correct that the engine needs to run higher rpm to make descent power.
You have invested in a good head, but it is up to you to have a bottom end to match.

If it were mine, I would do 1JZ H beam rods with forged pistons, then put a Holley 2300 Super Sniper on the two barrel intake and run some boost.
A properly tuned turbocharged engine has the least amount of stress for a given power level (including N/A) and will be reliable.
350 hp and 350 ft lbs of torque would be a good goal.

 

[slowhoon]

That's a badass little 170 man. I am thankful i was able to find a Aussie 2V, but I've definitely paid for it at this point. Pushing $2700 after import and broker fees. But I feel that it's worth it at this point since it does not seem the Aluminum head is ever coming back. what's neat, is that weber/redline actually makes an intake and linkage kit for the 2V. Honestly, at this point I think I'm sold on the 3x2 webers. The supercharger is cool, but not for a mostly daily. Plus, even though minor, triple webers looks pretty impressive when you open the hood lol. Do I need to fab a heat shield between the exhaust and the carbs?

If you can fabricate a heat shield I'd always recommend it. I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is a better heat shield as it reflects heat instead of absorbing it like aluminum does.