Unorthodox cooling.

bumpsidetreasures

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Gents,

Bumping around ideas in my mind.. Thought I bounce a few off you folks here.

I won't say just exactly what I'm up too.. But I'll pose this question. Air-flow from the fan (be it electric, or crank), how important is it in the engine bay? (I'm working with carbed 300) In other-words, let's assume the radiator is staying cool. And water temps are cool. Is there really ANY benefit to the flowing air produced by said fan(s) on the engine block itself / components?

Let's theorize ..

- Joseph
 

bubba22349

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:hmmm: Yes the air flowing over the radiator fins, the engine, and through the engine compartment is important when the vehicle is standing still and moving at lower speeds, this can also depend on the design of the engine compartment. Generally at speeds of around 35 MPH and up the natural air flow takes over and a fan would then no longer be needed for a typical car use. For Truck use though you would also need to consider all the possible operating conditions and amount of load you would be carrying too. Good luck on your project :nod:
 

B RON CO

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Hi, x2 bubba. Also components like ignition modules deteriorate at high temps. You don't say what you are up to but the skinny six is hotter on the exhaust side of course, especially if you have a cat up high. The V8 generates a lot more heat on both sides and is a much tighter fit in the engine bay. A well stuffed engine bay needs all the help it can get.
 

80broncoman

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B RON CO":13zeds0o said:
Hi, x2 bubba. Also components like ignition modules deteriorate at high temps. You don't say what you are up to but the skinny six is hotter on the exhaust side of course, especially if you have a cat up high. The V8 generates a lot more heat on both sides and is a much tighter fit in the engine bay. A well stuffed engine bay needs all the help it can get.


I agree on the ignition module.
and on 87 300 EFI trucks they had a extra fan mounter on the inner fender with ductwork to keep the fuel injectors cool.

some 4.0L jeeps have some issues with heat as well. AND it is much worse in the tighter engine bay of the unibody Cherokees than it is in any othe chassis.
 

bumpsidetreasures

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This is a carbed build, with points.

So what's generally being said, is the overall ambient temperature of the engine/engine bay, is being improved by the hot (radiator) air being sucked and blown (in sloppy fashion) on the front of the crankcase.

Okay, so I'm an aviation background, with some experience in cooling via strictly air, or liquid, and any conceivable combination of the two. Be it cooling, water, metal, air charge, or oil.. There's so many ways and factors.

Still on the drawing board.. Let's theorize some more...

-Joseph
 

B RON CO

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Hi, I'll also mention vapor lock and incoming air temps. The cooler the better.
 

Firepower354

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Boiling point of the various components in modern pump fuel may cause issues.
Maybe a bigger fuel pump and bypass regulator, to keep fresh cool fuel at the carb?
Thermal barrier coatings can help keep the exhaust manifolds from donating a lot of heat, and the intake from absorbing as much.
 

bubba22349

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bumpsidetreasures":uuhnmapu said:
This is a carbed build, with points.

So what's generally being said, is the overall ambient temperature of the engine/engine bay, is being improved by the hot (radiator) air being sucked and blown (in sloppy fashion) on the front of the crankcase.

Okay, so I'm an aviation background, with some experience in cooling via strictly air, or liquid, and any conceivable combination of the two. Be it cooling, water, metal, air charge, or oil.. There's so many ways and factors.

Still on the drawing board.. Let's theorize some more...

-Joseph

Hi Joseph, I am also an A&P licensed mechanic. Yes generally it is improved and the more heat you can retain in the engine up to a fine point the more efficient the engine will be at least as far as fuel economy goes.
 

bumpsidetreasures

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I appreciate the continued discussion...

In my theories, optimum would be HOT fuel, COLD air. But mixing the two without adverse effects is tough.

We're going to see how this plays out.. I'll detail the thoughts here in due time.

- Joseph
 

1976RFordman

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turbo2256b":budl0d23 said:
Basic info is that 50% of cooling is from the oil, 40% coolant and 10% air flow through the engine department

So basically you are saying that the hot air sucked off the radiator provides 10% of the engine cooling needs. I am just curious how much it is cooling since the temp of the air coming off the radiator is fairly hot. I know moving air does cool things to some extent, but I also know as a motorcycle rider that once the temp gets high enough that the outside air even can feel hot on your face instead of cool riding down the freeway.
 

bumpsidetreasures

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I'm going to assume, generously, that maybe 25% of that cooling is the moving air (post radiator .. fan air on the block). I'm more than confident I can make that up in my unorthodox approach.

Will detail progress here, not too far in the future.

- Joseph
 

bubba22349

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turbo2256b":16w3qavb said:
Basic info is that 50% of cooling is from the oil, 40% coolant and 10% air flow through the engine department

I don't know the correct amounts but I think that a certain amount of the engines heat also goes out the exhaust!

On the air flow and coolant part is of the cooling system:

The engine transfers some of its heat to the coolant, the coolant then transfers that heat to the radator, with the radator transferring heat to the air by coolant flowing through the tubes and then by the fins by the movement of the air across them. Some of the engines radiate heat is transferred by the air movement over its surface area and some heat transfer is by convection as warm or hot air moves faster towards cool air (thermal dynamics) Hot air can also move in any direction up down or sideways as it movies towards the cooler air. As a side note the first hot rod I built back in the 1966 (was a Model T bucket no hood or fenders) I tried to go with out a fan first and then went to a cut down 4 blade. In the summer time it could be problematic at slow speeds. Good luck :nod:
 

username

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bumpsidetreasures":1q2teyok said:
Gents,

Bumping around ideas in my mind.. Thought I bounce a few off you folks here.

I won't say just exactly what I'm up too.. But I'll pose this question. Air-flow from the fan (be it electric, or crank), how important is it in the engine bay?
- Joseph


It's not at all, Smokey proved this over 30 years ago....and that's all ~I'll~ say... :LOL:
 

psa1sonic

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So. Yes and no. Like most have said the fans airflow at low speed and idled is to a. draw heat from the radatior.
B. provide cooler under hood ambient temperatures.
Do you need it no. But relocation of components that do other wise premature failure could occur.
 

sdiesel

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if all engine components are of the same cast iron, you can get uniform temperatures throughout the block.
if i can have my oil in pan at 195-200 consistently, with adequate oil cooling; essentially a heat exchanger in the radiator,

and localized cooling for ignition and alternator
i would let the cast iron get hot, as it would do so uniformly, i believe it would be beneficial to fuel burn.

am i wrong here?
 

Cool23

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Coolant flow would also help cooling and in some cases an electric water pump can help a mechanical pump. I have done this on many of my vehicles. Inline Ford six has an electric driven mechanical pump and stock fan that runs at a constant speed. I have an electric pump as a back up with a V8 Windsor and stock mechanical pump. In my truck with the 6BT Cummins stock mechanical pump I have an electric pump in the heater hose system.

You could also use a small transmission cooler in the fuel line as cooler fuel helps with heat issues. So to answer the question about air flow over the engine I see it as not important. Consider vehicles with radiators mounted in other locations like the rear of the vehicle.
 

bubba22349

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sdiesel":1c2t82t8 said:
if all engine components are of the same cast iron, you can get uniform temperatures throughout the block.
if i can have my oil in pan at 195-200 consistently, with adequate oil cooling; essentially a heat exchanger in the radiator,

and localized cooling for ignition and alternator
i would let the cast iron get hot, as it would do so uniformly, i believe it would be beneficial to fuel burn.

am i wrong here?

Yes you are right getting the engine heat up will help improve the fuel burn and the engines effecancy. My best guessamet is this is somewhere about 210 to 230 degrees and just short of overheating. Good luck (y) :nod:
 

Max_Effort

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There are a lot of engines running with remote cooling systems. Automotive and industrial engines. (Two quick automotive examples I can think of are the Pontiac Fiero and VW Vanagon ) They usually work fine. You still need some ventilation and airflow through the engine compartment. It doesn’t have to be the radiator fan though. (Or fan forced)
 
Max_Effort":1mez2tmo said:
There are a lot of engines running with remote cooling systems. Automotive and industrial engines. (Two quick automotive examples I can think of are the Pontiac Fiero and VW Vanagon ) They usually work fine. You still need some ventilation and airflow through the engine compartment. It doesn’t have to be the radiator fan though. (Or fan forced)
Hey, I'm new to the Ford six scene, but i agree with max effort. Another example is airplane tugs. Most of the older ones use the Ford 300, as well as numerous gensets with remote cooling. As a diesel mechanic, I've seen many different engines in different chassis with multiple cooling system designs. Airflow over the engine is negligible as long as heat sensitive components are adequately cooled otherwise. In the heavy industrial scene, there is a cooler for most everything. Even most ecms have a fuel cooled plate built in. Caterpillar and Cummins are two that come to mind. I would make sure that all fluid (especially the engine oil) has a way to get cooled, and any electronics stay within their designed heat range.
 
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