using a 250 crank

kemdell

New member
Got talking to a friend about reconning my 170 in the XP after it's just come back from it's maiden (since I've owned it) return trip Sydney to Tweed Heads.

He's suggesting putting a 250 crank in it (among other bright ideas), is this good? Or just plain silly?

I must admit I am a novice about car engines so please don't howl me down for downright stupidity, I am quite capable of handling that myself.

Anyway thanks in advance to anyone who can post an answer.

cheers!
 
As made, it won't fit.

If you turn down the bearing journals it may fit, but the throws will probably strike the block sides at the sump flange. Murdering the crank and running an OHC conversion would probably work, but you'd be in it for at least $10K.

What is the need for a rebuild, dictated by?
 
Thanks for the reply Addo.

Since I bought the old girl I've wanted a bit of extra power, it seemed a bit sluggish compared with (of course) todays vehicles.

I guess that's not uncommon and I'm not suggesting it's likely that I should be looking for a 40+ year old car to be as good (performance wise), but a little get up and go, together with a better ability to cruise at highway speeds should be obtainable.

Recently (this month actually) I went to Wintersun (Gold Coast) with the family and while she performed reasonably and didn't miss a beat (couldn't fault it on reliability) it was rather noisy, seemed to be doing too much work when travelling at 70mph and when I got to 80 I was sure I could hear Scotty from Star Trek in the background "She's not gonna take it Captain, I'm giving her all she's got".

I did however get 25mpg which wasn't too bad considering there was 5 of us and we were loaded to the hilt.

But I do intend to make longer journeys on a more regular basis with the family cos it's loads more fun than our regualr vehicle. Therefore i don't think it's fair on the car/engine if i don't upgrade her a bit.

I was considering buying a slightly larger engine (no substitute for cubic inches etc) and tinkering about a bit and pondering over different setups etc, but I think finally our thoughts are that "it came with a 170, therefore it will stay with the 170" and just see what we can do.

If I could maybe increase the original power of 83kw to around say 110 (is that too ambitious) I'd probably be quite happy, bearing in mind I don't actually know what power it outputs now compared with when it was new.

I have fitted standard boosted disc brakes from an XP Fairmont already (although I reduced the profile to get the same overral size as a 13" setup) and plan to put on some heavier sway bars (both front and rear) to stop it rolling around a bit.

Any suggestions on how to tweak her up would be most appreciated, I'm all ears.
 
i think the xp had the 7main bearing crank and they will rev like a son of a bitch but dont pull like a big cube engine.
a 250 crank wont fit but a 200 crank from same vintage will.
if your wanting more cubes the easist swap whould be the 221 which is a modded 170/200 block.
then get a 2v head to let it breath get it balanced and blueprinted a cam and extractors should get you to 110+ kw.
you will also most likly need to change the diff which will be around the 3.5 a 3.08 or 2.92 will help reduce the racket
 
The 144, 170 and early 200s, had the smallback motors with four mains.

Changing the block to anything later will require a new bellhousing but offers some benefits.

I am assuming it's a manual, based on the consumption figures!

RTA allows you up to 15% increase in power OR capacity as "owner certified" - no engineer's report needed. A bored out 221 is pretty close to the limit, and offers the best power/weight ratio for the smaller sixes (considering the later 250 is chunkier). 200s from the XR era are floating around but much less common now. You'd usually leave Sydney to find a good one.

Tagged onto that you could run an all-synchro three speed from a later vehicle (1971-late '80s) or a T-5 from an XF Falcon. There are some specific issues with clutching depending on how you choose to proceed.

Some driveshaft modification may be needed, and an aftermarket rear mount for the box.

If you want to stay with the original motor then source a 3.2:1 diff. Get a cam (re)grind that is a little lumpier, fit an XW 221's carb and electronic ignition from an XE Falcon (requires change of oil pump). That's pretty close to maxed out for a "daily driver".

You can fit dual side-draught SU carbs but that requires brazing some mounts onto the intake manifold's side, and if they leak it's onto the exhaust. :shock:

Hope there's some use in my ramblings!

Cheers, Adam.
 
Some sound advice there Addo, many thanks.

The 25mpg I got was actually from a 3 speed Auto, bear in mind I left at like 4am in the morning and the traffic was really light thru Sydney and the roads a lot better than it used to be. For most of the journey I was buzzing about between 60 and 70 mph.

Back in 1986 I had an XP Sedan, same gearbox etc and I got 29 mpg on the open road. I kid you not.

Anyway with regard to the diff, is it possible to buy the diff centre or is that over simplistic of me? Or is it just simpler/cheaper to buy new tyres with the original 14" profile, so the car travels further on one rotation of the wheel?

Can the 170 block be bored out? Is it possible to lengthen the stroke?

I intend to get the head redone and hardened valves fitted as well. The cam regrind seems to be a given.

In regards to elctronic ignition, why is a new oil pump required? I wasn't aware that oil and ignition were related (told you i have the mechanical apptitude of a politician) although i thought that a brass bush was needed on the XE shaft.

Besides the XW carbie are there any other carbies that could be considered, or are 2 stage 2 barrel carbs simply not worth it?
 
Working from the bottom of your post, up.

The carb issue is one where I have some differnt opinions to others.

Firstly the later Falcon style 2 barrel progressive is OK, but it ideally should be mounted perpendicular to the head with the secondary barrel outwards, if you get my meaning. Makes for either an adaptor with greatly compromised airflow, or a lot of brazing and grinding...

2-barrel synchronous carbs may be aligned with the head, but fuel starvation as the vehicle corners, may be noted. Also, fuel distribution may be unequal and slightly lean in #2 and #5. The GM style X-2 setup is better, but again you have to braze plates on.

If you go too big on a single barrel carb like a Stromberg BXZ, it will probably atomise poorly at lower airflow demands.

Jumping to the ignition: Your original distributor is only matched to the original style carb. It has no mechanical advance. When you change the engine's nature, you risk losing a good chunk of its functionality by altering the vacum signal it receives.

However, this original dizzy has a 0.490" shaft, whereas later ones (XR-XB) have a 0.530" shaft. Around the XE, they went back to small again. With some minor reworking, the later unit will physically fit - the block bushing or shaft change is only required on engines with the larger hole. However, assume any 20+ year old ignition system could do with a decent re-curve.

The oil pump is driven from the bottom of your distributor shaft and on the present setup uses a hex shaft around 7/32". In the later sixties, that enlarged to 5/16" and this is why you'll need to change your oil pump - to work with the later ignition unit. Chances are you may need to grind a little off the shaft length as they're normally supplied for the physically taller blocks.

We have seen a good few problems in recent times with cam billet quality. For a moderate grind, reusing the original cam is a better policy and may (check with the grinders) mean you can keep the original distributor gear instead of going to the hardened one sold by Crow. You might try Watson or the mob up in the Hunter area (forgotten their name in a senior moment)for a regrind. Lifters can probably be linished - see what they say.

Before doing anything to the head, work out which one it is. An XT head is often better (slightly bigger valves and larger intake area), if you can source it. XW-onwards had larger chambers so you'll lose compression unless you munch lots off the gasket face.

The 170 block is a sort of revised, maxed out 144 and you can bore to about 60 thou, and probably add 50 thou to the stroke (but that would never be cost-effective). Depending on how far it's been bored previously, you may be at the end with it. Notes elsewhere in the Forum about gasket types, deck height and compression ratio, all apply equally to your situation.

I'm surprised at that mileage coming with an auto; in many ways that suggest an engine/tranny in optimum condition and I might be playing with a completely different motor and box rather than messing up what I had there.

With the rear gearset - 3.2 is a sought-after combination, but to install the gears you must set the preload and backlash. Including new carrier and pinion bearings, this could be between $250 and $450, probably on the lighter side of that unless the wheel bearings are shot too. A diff from a US Mustang with 2.92 or so ratio, will fit but you may have to deal with Australian Mustang enthusiasts (a special bunch
bat.gif
)

Tyres are something where a fairly narrow tread will see you better off. 195 is plenty on this car, and the outer diameter is certainly a means to fine-tune the fuel economy.

Cheers, Adam.
 
if you like good read see this link:

http://www.geocities.com/hotrod_inline6/

what they were doing in the sixties....

and look at the pages a'horsing around with the mustang six'
admittedly a 200ci but should all be the same procedure for the 170 and

and if ya have too much time and money the pages 'modifying the falcon 6'
supercharged or tripple carbs or 6 carbs....
 
Addo thanks for the effort you've put in regarding my questions. It's made me do some thinking about what I want to achieve and how to try and spend the money a little more wicely. Working with a 170 as a base probably isn't that smart.

In the end I have ended up buying a 200ci Mustang engine, which I hope will fit! http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... &rd=1&rd=1

I end up getting a little bit more performance and still retain that "original" look so to speak.

Once I collect it, it will go to my mechanic mates place and get reconned and do some of the things you've suggested.

Any pitfalls/tips etc would be most welcome and I'll keep you up to date/pics if your'e interested.
 
Typical Mustang owner. :roll: At least he's done the right thing by you.

That's very cheap for what you've picked up - you'll have to acquire an aftermarket rear mount for the C4 tranny, but that's about the worst of it.

See if the seller won't let the flexplate, converter and tranny go as well - while it's inferior to the 250/302 C4s, it will do at a pinch and you can later upgrade the clutch packs and front servo.

Timing set is the 50-link one sold by JP as their "Canadian six" model, and Romac as their Early Falcon timing set. Don't get sold the 52-link assembly. ACL's gasket catalogues are a bit scrambled early on, so be ready for some to-ing and fro-ing with the sump and timing cover gaskets.

Everything else is pretty regular - try to have it torque plate honed if you're reboring, and definitely get the deck height sorted. Although (here's my edit) if the fellow who suggested a 250 crank transplant is your mechanical expert - I'd tactfully look elsewhere for the skills needed.
 
Well I have now got the mustang engine and all systems are go! Should be stripping it down shortly and commencing the rebuild.

Whille i was picking up the engine the mustang owner also offered me the six cylinder diff, which i think is a 3.2 ratio, and also has the same 4 bolt pattern, is this a straight fit?

thanks again
 
Yeah, a swap-in. Don't know about quality relative to the original but free is good.
 
Back
Top