Wierd Science H2O2 Injection

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I guess this is what happens when your sniffing alcohol fumes all day and your boss is a chemical enginer that's bored.

We were talking about water injection in turbo engines and he brought up the fact that hydrogen peroxide will shed it's extra oxygen atom rather easily.
This brought on more talk of how much is to much and the concensus was "I don't know"

So, have any of you heard or read anything about the use of hydrogen peroxide (low percentage please) in place of straight water?

Don't play with HIGH Percentage 50+% H2O2. You may die!

John
 
The 40% that I get at work is pretty cheap, as chemicals go, about $2.50 a gallon.

I didn't say it was practicle. I want to know if it's POSSIBLE?

John
 
I think you're right StrangeRanger. Hmm.... wouldn't it in effect act similar to NOS? It would act as an oxidizer for the fuel and cool the intake charge at the same time. Or am I wrong in my assumption? Dang it John, now you got me thinking again. :twisted: LOL
 
Wasn't hydrogen peroxide half of the fuel used in the German "Komet" rocket-powered interceptor? (Me 163??)


Strangeranger beat me to the question. Also, I have tried but just CANNOT figure out how to use the quote feature. Someone please enlighten this computer dummy!
Thanks,
Joe
 
Take a bracket like [ and apply "quote" then apply a ] around that... Then type in the quote (or hit the quote feature) and then another bracket [ and a slash / and a quote and a closing bracket thuslly ]. Put it all together sans spaces and you've got yourself a quote.


-=Whittey=-
 
I wouldn't use hydrogen peroxide (a powerful oxidizing agent) around something as chemically volatile as fuel. The end result would probably be akin to someone mixing pool chlorine with fuel. Both Chlorine and Oxygen free radicals love to cut into hydrocarbons, adding something with lots of free oxygen in the mix to a fuel source probably wouldn't increase the octane rating, sorry to say :p
 
Lazy JW":2317gwv9 said:
Also, I have tried but just CANNOT figure out how to use the quote feature. Someone please enlighten this computer dummy!
Click to expand...
Each individual post has a "quote" button at the top right. Click on this. This will automatically generate a response post with everything in that post in quote. Delete everything except what you want to quote, but do not delete anything inside the [] brackets. This is needed code. Then add your own verbiage below the quote.
 
Interesting idea.... My guess is that even a small amount of H202 added to gasoline would make the fuel highly unstable. The extra oxygen should create a quicker burn, as it allows the hydrogen to be more readily stripped from the hydorcarbons. Essentially, it should lower the octane rating causing premature ignition -- That is just a guess though. I haven't had any chemistry since O-Chem in college! My brother is a doctor of chemistry though, so I'll get the final word from him.
 
So, have any of you heard or read anything about the use of hydrogen peroxide (low percentage please) in place of straight water?
Click to expand...
It seems to me that if you weren't very careful you could lean out the engine and burn through some pistons. Even a small amount of injected H2O2 could create a lean condition without precise metering of the H2O2 and fuel. Interesting idea, but it probably isn't worth the risk.
 
Look in NHRA's rule book! It states NO USE OF HYDROGEN PEROXIDE!
This was Very big back in the late fifties and early sixties until real bad things started to happen. There was a fuel ban (no nitro) for a few years (this is why all the multi engine top fuelers came about) and one thing "secretly" used was hydrogen peroxide.

I personaly don't know exactly what it does and have never used it, I just heard a lot of stories how it was dangerous if it got on your skin. (like benzine, acetone, lead, other fuel additives)

With diesel? I tried propane and it works good, and I heard of guys trying nitrous on diesels.....if it wasn't so dangerous, why not? :wink:
 
a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide in water or saline is an excellent chemical to have in your first aid kit. its really good at sterilizing, it also softens up scabs and its a really good mouth wash :D

AFAIK it doesn't have many industrial uses, though.

H2O2 in a diesel would be Very Interesting.. no doubt its been tried before, I wonder how well it went with it..
 
In early 40s-50s rocket experiments alcohol and H2O2 was used and it was VERY hazardous. Remember pic in book about the early Bell X series rockets showing spilt H2O2 "burning" the soil at Edwards AFB.

No Thank You!
 
Ah well. It was a good theory. I remebered hearing that NHRA had outlawed Hydrogen Peroxide but had forgotten about it till goinbroke2 mentioned it. It might work in a diesel though :? I've met a few guys who have had great success with NOS on diesels.
 
8) the komet used a mix of fuels known as C-stoff and T-stoff(i think the spelling is right). one was alcohol and water, the other was hydrogen peroxide. the german air force had very specific and rigid procedures that needed to be followed when refueling the komet. they started by flushing the system with water, both tanks and the combustion chamber. only then did they bring up the first fuel truck, the trucks had to be seperated by an minimum distance, filled one tank, removed the fuel truck, waashed everything down with water, then brought up the other fuel truck and filled the other tank. the aircraft was also grounded to prevent sparks, and a water hose was always running. even still it was not uncommon to have a komet blow up on take off, or in flight. the program i watched showed the two fuels being mixed on a plate. it was a violent explosion even though the plate was in the open. hydrogen peroxide as a catalyst? you are crazier than i thought(sounds like something i might have suggested when i was your age!!!).
 
I emailed my brother about this and the following is his response...

I wouldn't get into an argument over it because I am not an expert on
combustion, however, this is what I would think. Nitrous oxide is a strong
oxidant, and does actually provide aditional oxygen to the air fuel mixture, cosequently, addition heat of combustion, additional expansion, and rapid pistion movement etc. etc. => more efficient combustion. In fact, we commonly use nitrous oxide as the sole oxident in microtorches
(butane/nitrous oxide torches). In addition, although all combustion
processes yield water and carbon dioxide, the nitrous oxide (N2O) should
also yield N2 as a byproduct of combustion. The expansion of the nitrogen gas also contributes to the increase in performance. Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) on the other hand may enhance performance only slightly. Think of it this way: CH4 + H2O2 +1.5 O2 --> CO2 + 3 H2O (this is for methane, but you could just multiply to get to whatever hydrocarbon you are burning). So additional water is produced as a by product of the combustion with H2O2. Although it would be gaseous, it would actually cool the combustion mixture (high heat capacity of water). The decreased temp would decrease the expansion, and reduce the efficiency. In addition, a large amount of the combustion energy would go to heating the water to keep it in the gas phase, again, energy is lost to heat, and efficiency is decreased. Of course this could all be bullshit, but it makes sense right now. I know this was probably a little more in depth than you wanted but too bad.
P.S., Other peroxides could potentially be used in this
application to get the desired effect without reducing the power, but most
that could be used are likely to be extremely unstable (explode
spontaneously). The Germans experimented with several in WWII as propelents for rockets and jets.
 
I gotta run now, but here's a quick note on h2o2...

Florida, DON'T try to mix 40% h2o2 and a liquid hydrocarbon fuel, as you may well get a violent spontaneous explosion. H2o2 CAN be used safely, though. Search google for lots of hits on "hydrogen peroxide fuel kart". Rocket kart enthusiasts have worked out how to use it fairly safely, and you can learn a lot from just reading their websites.

Have fun! Stan :)
 
NO WORRIES STAN,

I've learned to never take the ramblings of a chemical enginer at face value, after chassing alcohol leaks for 6 hours! :lol:

John
 
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