zero decking

lyonsy

Well-known member
zero decking my understanding is getting the pistons level with the top of the block.
now question doesent crank flex and rod stretch piston stretch pin flex rod bolts stretch when accllerating and stoping at 23/25 meter's per second.
up to 40 thou ive been told
so what is zero decking
 
Zero decking is leveling the top of the pistons with the top of the block. If you have the right shape combustion chamber you can negative deck, but that gets a bit dangerous. Zero decking is ok because you still have the thickness of the gasket between the piston and the head.
 
D¡ck Johnson reckoned to allow over 15 thou for stretch in operation. That was on a 351; shouldn't be too different for us.
 
8) dont forget to include the compressed thickness of the head gasket in your calculations.
 
That's a little tight for me. We use to run pretty tight decks on our race motors. It is hard to put an exact number on something that rocks in the bore.

When we measured the deck with piston installed, we would use an indicator. Put it on one side of the piston and rock the piston in the bore and record reading. Then do the other side of the piston. If the deck isn't square with the bore you will get two different readings. Obviously you would work off of the tightest side, or square the deck with the bore.

The tighter you run it, the more cautious you have to be with the tune and running conditions.

Aluminum rods= recomended .060"
I have run .042" on a 614" cu in BBC drag motor. I have had other customer who I wouldn't get below .060', because they weren't as careful.
That was a 6.800" rod and 4.500" range on the bore. The long rod exhands alot and the pistons rock quiet a bit in the bore. If I were building a smaller engine like a 5.7" rod with a 4.000" bore, I could tighten it up.

Steel rods= recomended .040"
On my dirt motors (SBC) I have ran as tight as .023", but that was working off of the high side of the piston rock. The high side being .015" out of the bore.

Example: If you put the indicator in the middle of the piston, and rock the piston side to side, it will not show any difference.
If you put the indicator out on the edge of the piston, it will show how much the piston rocks. On a 4.000" bore with forged pistons, it will usualy rock about .010". With your indicator zeroed on the deck, and a therotical zero deck, the indicator would read +.005" to -.005". Half way between this is .000".

Variables to consider
Expansion rate of piston material, stock cast, hypereutectic, forged high silicone, or forged low silicone. Combine this with bore diameter and entended usage, and you will get about .011" variation in bore clearence. This will result in the piston rocking more on some engines and less on others.
The theory is to work off of the center of the piston and eliminate variables, but it does the opposite when you are splitting hairs.

Expansion rate of rods, long rod versus short rod, cast versus steel versus aluminum. Each material has different expansion rates and total expansion will vary with length and temp.
Aluminum rods will obviously expand more than steel.
I have a theory that I haven't proven.
I feel that aluminum rods allow the piston to get closest to the head under full power because of heat and extreme inertial loads.
It appears to me that, steel rod motors get the closest when cold.
The only evidence I have to offer. When you build on the ragged edge, you will transfer the mill marks from the head to the piston. Not enough contact to harm it, it just keeps the carbon dusted off the piston and head. :lol: The contact area can be anywhere from 1/4" to 1" wide without hurting it. When a customer would bring a motor to be freshened up, the steel rod motors would have a brighter contact area on the pistons. At first, I would get nervous, and for good reason. Then I noticed the difference in carbon deposits. The plugs would have evidence of running it cold and rich. The aluminum rod motors would have these deposits on the contact area, while the steel rod motors wouldn't :?

Theory: Steel rods expand less so the static deck clearence is tighter while cold. Combine this with a cold piston rocking in the bore and the car owner getting a little agressive with the throttle and you get contact.

Theory: Aluminum rod motors have more clearence while cold which gives more safety margin on a cold engine. Under full power, the piston and rod grow to potential contact.

This could be wrong. It was made visible to me by guys who had improperly tuned carbs. And some extreme operating conditions.

In the end, it is best to start from a known safe deck clearence. Then, every time you freshen up the engine, tighten up the deck a little and look for signs of contact. When you start dusting the carbon off the pistons and don't hurt the bearing, you have found it. 8) Once you have found it, every time you hone the cylinders, it will contact a little more. So at some point, you will have to shave the pistons a little. :lol: That's the problem with the ragged edge, it keeps moving.
 
thanks for that stubs
well ill be running a cast crank with cast rods and cast hypereutectic type pistons.
so ill have the machine shop do them to what i orginaly was at 40 thou clearence and ill see if i can just clip them oneday :twisted:
btw this is for dirt circle track racing
 
Cast, cast, hyper = .030" starting point.
I would start at .030" to .035" total and go from there.

That is the most stable. The block, crank, and rods match and the pistons run fairly tight bore clearence. I think you could start at .030" total and tighten it up from there.
 
Howdy All:

Keep in mind, the goal of optimizing the total deck clearance is to gain combustion efficiency by maximizing the quench effect. Quench is the process of incoming mixture being squeezed out of the tightest recesses between the deck of the head and to top of the piston. Several factors effect quench- deck clearance, chamber shape, piston design, Quench-to-bore ratio, and rpm. Improving the quench effect improves engine efficiency.

Deck clearance is a combination of deck height and the compressed thickness of the head gasket.

To promote a decent quench effect on compression, total deck clearance must be no greater than about .035". With stock, OEM type rods, cast pistons and available head gaskets, a zero deck height is an admirable goal for our small sixes. In general, tighter is better, but it is not good for the piston and head to occupy the same space at the same time. This becomes more critical with engine wear, increased rpm and piston rock.

As cam duration goes up, piston to valve clearance must also be considered, planned for and attended to.

Zero deck height is one factor. It is part of a complete plan of moving and static pieces which must work together in harmony to attain maximum power safely.

Adios, David
 
sweet thankks for all that again.
ill have them set the deck at 35thou
i dont have to worry about valves hitting pistons as they have to have at least 300thou lift before they leave the combustion chamber.
the combustion chamber is a kidney shape canted valve design (think clevo)
and my opion on quench is its nice but a hemi proves you dont need to worry to muh about it
 
Stubby":2iqd8uah said:
... :lol: That's the problem with the ragged edge, it keeps moving.

Is this guy great or what? :D It's guys like Stubby that make this site interesting. Thanks for the insight,
Joe
 
Really .030" squish, Stubby?!! You're braver than I. That's great on a freshly rebuilt street motor with everything new and tight, but I want to run a street motor well beyond 100K without drama. So on my new 300 van motor that will never see 5500rpm, .035" squish is as brave as I'll get, more likely .038-.040". For Drift C's circle track racer that will get revved and sometimes over-revved, I'd think .050" squish (actual cold clearance with the head torqued down on the gasket) would be minimum.
Drift, you know about measuring squish by crushing a piece of solder or by claying, right?
 
:lol: When you get aggressive, you will see some contact. :lol:

On any new combo, I would start conservative, and hunt from there.

The highly touted ZERO DECK is loosely based on the old Fel Pro .037 compressed gasket. Now add an old TRW forged piston with about .005 to .007 clearence and it will rock about .010 in the bore. This is zero deck and the piston rocks +.005 and -.005 which gives about .032 actual deck height. Add some yahoo showing his budy his new motor and reving it cold in the shop and you can see light contact. You should always get the temp stable before you hammer on it.

On the Hypereutectic pistons (Speed Pro not KB) the skirts set up tight and there is very little rocking going on. 8)

This is why I started using the high side of the rock. To eliminate some of the variables. This is one of those areas where some idiots taught me alot.
There was a dirt tracker in Dallas who I used to build for. I was being conservative with his motors. My memory fails me for actual numbers. He was green and I built a little safety margin into his motor. This motor left with a Fel pro head gasket and returned with a steel shim. :shock: After close examination and no contact, I had a new number. 8) Along with this number, I had a set of conditions and procedures. The conditions and procedures are a very important part of the puzzle. I monitered the pistons along with cylinder wall clearence and piston rock. At about .009 to .011 cylinder wall clearence on Manley flat tops, it started showing a little contact. I don't remember how much it rocked, but it was a bunch. This is the reason the rings wouldn't last long, the head of the piston was touching above the ring.
At this clearence, it would only last about 250 to 300 race laps before it started losing some power, but it would fly.
I called him an idiot because he didn't make an educatated decision on the gasket, he did what some guy told him to do. :lol: In the end, he turned out to be a good customer with lots of feedback and a force to be reckoned with on the track. If he hadn't been arrested for tax evaison, he might have been in Nascar by now. (Just a little something else he taught me not to do) :lol:
In the end, my normal procedure was to set up a motor so it could be freshened up four to five times before it would show contact. That is unless the customer wanted to start on the ragged edge, or a class that required it.

I have learned more from accidents and mistakes than I ever did from known facts and procedures. :? 8)
 
I tend to work on 40 thous squish height max, 100 thous valve clearance and over decked toplands if possible. ACL monotorque gasket will give in the region of 45 thous sandwich.

I've run closer on turbo engines and never had a clash from piston creep.

I should add that the block has a linear expansion co-eff of about 11.8 (10^-6 /°C) while the alloy piston is about 23.6. So there's very little creep from heat. Throw a piston in some boiling water and measure the change in dimensions to see for yourself.
 
I would never run less than .040 total on the deck without a lot of thought.
Drift Cortina is pursuing a race application, or so it seems. I was just sharing some info that I have picked up over the years.

If I were building a bracket racer or hot street car, I would probably shoot for .040 deck and run it till the wheels fell off.
If I were building a rule restricted class where I had to squeeze it for all I could get, I promise there would be no carbon on the pistons. There wouldn'e enough room for it. :lol:

Smitty posted up about the hundred pound rule. This is just applying that philosophy to other areas. It's a rule I enjoy following.
 
Stub, those figure for the rocking of forged pistons are COLD, correct? Since forged pistons grow more than the high-silicon cast pistons, they all ought to have roughly the same amount of rock when HOT, right??
 
How can a piston slap 0.010, when there is only 0.005 bore clearance and a set of rings in the way?

Even if there was a 0.010 side play a 4" piston would only be about 1.25" long to get the topland rotation of 0.032 above deck from zero. Somewhere in that 1.25" you'd have to get a gudgeon pin, a compression ring, a scraper and an oil ring. Then there is the problem with ringlands snapping with that much movement. Maybe my maths is wrong.
 
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