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one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

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chad
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one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #1 by chad » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:51 am

Starting to step on some 1s thread pretty heavily.
Sorry,
(no excuse) I just get into it & forget, not the 1st time. Gotta keep a lill more centered & not get so excited ~
Here's the entry, reposted here as a redirect offa the guy's back:

I guess for the "1 per cyl" a cardboard template (after the logectomy & mill pass)
and a total redesign of the carb linkage/spacing is in order.

The experts here R suggesting the Keihins? because they flow more appropriately for the combustion chamber & cyl sz? No rejeting or other internal adaptation?
The intake would B a one-design.
I'd think these would not B 'progressive' but 'unitized' (operate together) .
Would a rod linkage be suggested (w/may B Lokar cable to the skinny peddle)?
May B I better take this to a new thread - getting away from the SU/CI,
Sorry.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #2 by RichCreations » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:37 pm

chad wrote:Starting to step on some 1s thread pretty heavily.
Sorry,
(no excuse) I just get into it & forget, not the 1st time. Gotta keep a lill more centered & not get so excited ~
Here's the entry, reposted here as a redirect offa the guy's back:

I guess for the "1 per cyl" a cardboard template (after the logectomy & mill pass)
and a total redesign of the carb linkage/spacing is in order.

The experts here R suggesting the Keihins? because they flow more appropriately for the combustion chamber & cyl sz? No rejeting or other internal adaptation?
The intake would B a one-design.
I'd think these would not B 'progressive' but 'unitized' (operate together) .
Would a rod linkage be suggested (w/may B Lokar cable to the skinny peddle)?
May B I better take this to a new thread - getting away from the SU/CI,
Sorry.


I would expect they would need jetting, not sure why the preference for Keihins, but whatever... In general, bike carbs are setup for a cable...

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #3 by chad » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:16 pm

'S all helpful, thanks, RichC.

any more visitors? comments? ideas? interest?
8)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:14 pm

You would need a carburetor with an accelerator pump.
There are at least 3 choices in the motorcycle world.
Mikuni RS or HSR
Heihin FCR
S & S Super

Mikuni no longer makes the PHH series which was their automotive carb.
There are some available on Ebay

The price tag will be the limiting factor.

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #5 by Econoline » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:36 pm

I seems like it would be a tuning nightmare. Seems like you'd really want to know that all the carbs are in excellent and very similar condition.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #6 by chad » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:53 pm

"...must have an accelerator pump…"
OK, thanks. Wasn't aware.
(Also didn't know Mikuni made automotive - vs m.cycle, & up till 1990).
The "VM" I'm familiar with may NOT have that feature.
My original idea was because it was one of the few I knew of that were side draft, reliable, simple, right sized.
I'll f/u on the Heihin, S&S (I think they were on HDs), and the Keihins mentioned in the other literature cited.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #7 by oldsix » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:12 pm

There are two types of carbs generally used on bikes- Slide needle and Constant Depression Not familiar with the Mikuni or S & S, but I believe the FCR is a slide needle. Traditionally, slide needle carbs run on bikes were jetted rich,to mitigate the need for an accelerator pump.Dellorto was one of the few bike carb manufacturers that used an accelerator pump on slide needle carbs used on production bikes; in the early 80's other manufacturers started adding accelerator pumps to their aftermarket slide needle racing carbs so they could lean the running mixture for more power,

Slide needle carbs in general started being replaced in the 70's with constant depression carbs.These have a slide and needle like the side needle carbs, but also a throttle butterfly which a slide needle does not have. The throttle linkage on a slide need carb works on the slide, while on a constant depression carb the throttle operates the butterfly. The slide and needle are controlled by a vacuum signal based on throttle position and airflow. constant depression carbs do not require a separate accelerator pump function, as the slide and needle form a virtual accelerator pump.

Whack open the throttle on a constant depression carb, and the grater vacuum signal drags additional fuel from the jet until the vacuum signal starts to lift the slide & needle.

I had my rack of Keihins built because they are the most common carb on large displacement 4 cylinder Japanese bikes. Mine are 40mm. Sizing for an IR manifold is way different than needed on a system with a plenum. In a log manifold (or any manifold with a shared plenum between the carb and valve), the manifold is drawing mixture 100% of the time, so has a more or less steady flow through the carb bores. On an IR system,the stub manifold goes from no flow for 600 or so degrees of crank rotation to drawing for 120 degrees or so.so to support a high rpm engine the runner needs a relatively huge throttle bore.

Sorry for rambling, but thought it may be helpful

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #8 by chad » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:26 pm

agreed Econo.
Tuning (syncronising) them is no big deal with a hose, but there is a gadget called the Unisyn that takes all the guesswork out of the job.
But now I hear there's a Carter YH side draft (an early '60s thru '66 I've heard) that's reliable (just so many sizes it's hard to assure/ID the right one) used on early vetts too.


"...thought it may be helpful…"
Not ramblin. Like I said, it ALL helps !!!
Last edited by chad on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #9 by Hot 6t Falcon » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:43 pm

Matt Cox at Vintage Inlines sent me a picture a while back of some Falcon boat engines the had multiple sidedraft carbs.

Check with him. https://www.vintageinlines.com
Dennis Schjeldahl, (say Shell-doll)
Co-Author of The Ford Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #10 by chad » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:54 am

Hot 6t Falcon wrote:Matt Cox at Vintage Inlines sent me a picture a while back of some Falcon boat engines the had multiple sidedraft carbs.
Check with him. https://www.vintageinlines.com

Thanks for the post:
All I saw was (under "Photos") some shots of his own vehicle…
R these pic on the VI site or did they come 2 U personally?
Were they "1 per cyl"?
What make carbs?
Thnx Dennis~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #11 by WDoug72 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:42 pm

I'm still working on my set up. Have yet to post anything on my project and have been working on it on and off for about 3 years. Had it idle for the first time this weekend. Around 550rpm with a 260H cam.

I took 2 ZX9R carb banks and modified the linkage spacing to work with the port spacing on the 250-2V head. Clearance is extremely tight between the towers and the headers. I had to dimple the the six exhaust tube on my pacemaker headers for carb clearance and may need to move that header tube completely.

Hopefully this weekend will finished the throttle cable and pedal set up (using a 1970 mustang pedal). Tied both banks together using a cable splitter off a triumph motorcycle.

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Image

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #12 by chad » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:34 pm

"...tight between the towers and the headers…"
my goodness, yes! But U fit it in,no!?!

The 'plenum' between the carbs & head look no thicker than an inch or so. Just a thick plate.
U manufactured that plate urself, no?

It's not the "ZX9R" intake is it? Nother fella made a much wider intake between the carbs and head. Not sure how it would fit unless angled up like the Lynx or another (forget which one) Oz major automotive after market company's design.

And those R the Keihins you're using?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #13 by WDoug72 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:39 pm

Yes it all fits! But one of the carb bowls is a little closer to the number one exhaust tube than I like.

I built the intake on my hobby cnc. 1/2 6061 plate with aluminum tubing brazed to fit the carbs to. Most swaps I have seen with the ZX9R racks preserve the spacing between the carbs and have the intake make up the difference between the port spacing. I did the opposite where I modified the carb spacing to match the port spacing. Was a little more time consuming as I had to modify the linkage between the carbs.

Yes the carbs are keihin cvk's. The constant depression style carbs similar to SU's.

I kept the intake straight off the head for mounting simplicity but I feel an angled intake would definitely be better for overall header and tower clearance.

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #14 by gb500 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:29 am

thats a good looking set up -

any more photos of your manifold?

and this is an Australian 250 2V head ?

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one carb per cyl - various falcon motors/various carbs

Post #15 by chad » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:05 am

Thanks WDoug!
I'm still not sure due to not having the operational definitions or ignorance on what the parts terminology actually means (in terms of the objects seen in an assembly). But I LOVE pic and thank you profusely for them.
I'll wait and hope I can understand by observing the discussion (isn't that the OP's role in initiating threads anyway?).
BTW: do U have any pic of the same set up but disassembled (like an exploded diagram)?
Thanks much - U guys R helpin me 'get there'!
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #16 by WDoug72 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:18 am

Yes, its a 250-2V. These carbs like very low pressure. I actually swapped the spring in my low pressure regulator to get it down to 1lb of pressure.

Here are some more pictures.

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Image

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #17 by Econoline » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:32 am

That is way cooler than any V8 build :D
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #18 by WDoug72 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:27 pm

Thanks! I'm hoping I'll have a video this weekend of her running. Just in time for the nice weather 8)

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #19 by ludwig » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:58 pm

Do you have any shots of how you modified the head and the intake throats w/out the carbs? That is the most amazing setup we have seen in a long while.
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #20 by oldsix » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Have you figured out how to jet these yet?

Real similar to the deal I have, except I used the rubber carb spigits screwed to a flat plate for the intake.

I'm tying to figure out how to best use the rubber velocity stacks inside an air cleaner.

What filters are you running?

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #21 by chad » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:29 pm

Now I C U have ~ 3 inch tubes…
Thanks, the pic really helps!
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #22 by bubba22349 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:01 pm

:beer: Wow very nice and it looks Just right on that 2V head. :thumbup: good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #23 by WDoug72 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:42 pm

I didn't need to modify the head for the swap. All I did was make the aluminum flanges line up with the ports on the 250-2v. Then I just modified the carb linkage to match.

I have not had a chance to fool with the jetting. I have to replace one of the fuel line lines before testing. I did wire in a wideband to aid in the process.

I also had to build the filters. I ended up using KN filter and found one on their website by searching the dimensions. The oval filters are originally for a Mini 1.3L.

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #24 by xctasy » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:56 pm

NB// Soldering and pilot drilling twelve idle jets will get you close in this instance. Since the dischage rate goes haywire when you custom drill a jet, you have to swap six similar jets. The discharge chamfer defines flow rate, not so much drill size. Holley adjust the camfer to adjust flow rates in some cases. Then start lean with the first six idle jets, and keep opening them with another bigger size drill untill it doesn't idle as well. Start at 40 thou.


Then go back with the other 6 jets, and drill to the size that worked best.


Then find a Mikuni jet that discharges the same rate. Take the six driiled jets, hook them up to a Ford washer bottle with 50% Windex water solution.

https://www.reference.com/science/chemi ... 3b9f940d63

Specific gravity: 0.996 is close to water at 60 degrees F
MSDA sheet http://www.msanet.com/prism/pdfMSDS/SDSGM/10272.pdf

Gasoline kills the washer motor, and water doesn't flow like gas.

Then squirt into a known ounce cup, and time untill full. 45 psi is the normal delivery pressure for this test, and the normal curves for flow are in water injection publications. http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-063- ... pwm-valve/


Aquamist use pulse width modulation, so it isn't the same as it flows 2.4 times the rate of a Holley jet the same size.

but it gives you the idea.

Compared to Holley jets, a 47 thou (1.2 mm) jet at 45 psi with PWM (200 Hz cycles per second Pulse width Modulation) flowing methanol flow huge rates...its 400 cc/min, while Holley quote 171 cc/min using there test method with 0 .786 SG gasoline.


Tested my way, with Unchamfered holes, a 15.74 thou hole (0.40 mm) flows about 25 cc's per minute, or near to 25 mililiters per minute at 45 psi for. Its pretty well difficult to go below that size unless you have access to jewlers cutting tools.

Image

Gauging is not the right way, but its good for a start. Then use your smarts, and do direct flow measurement in a way that suits YOU.


See http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7172

R.Brown wrote: » Post Fri May 20, 2005 11:10 am. I have flowtested all types of jets, and have used many different methods. I found with the difference approach and exit angles on the jets that pin gauging them did not lead me in the right direction. You can to it for dirt cheap if you have a gram scale, and a stop watch, and some type of a fuel pump. Build a jig to hold a jet, make the entry and exit angles in the jig as large as possible so you do not influence the flow of fuel to the jet, then machine in a pressure tap right at the upstream side of the jig, near the jet. Plumb the tap to a 0-15 PSI gauge. Run the pressure to 6PSI, or whatever you dream up for head pressure. I use stoddard solvent .786 SG fluid. Get the jet flowing at the right pressure into one container on the bench, and have another sitting on the scale. Start the stop watch and move the hose into the container on the scale simultaneously. Flow for 1 minute. Record the weight.

I wrote a simple excel program to do the math, type in the weight and it converts to lb/hr.

This worked well when I was trying to prove to myself that this was a worthy endeavor. Now I sell over 500 flow tested main jets a year, so I built a flow stand with a high dollar flowmeter and a "quicker" way of testing, but the results are the same... just takes one tenth the time.

Feel free to ask any other questions about this, although I do not get a chance to surf very often these days. You can email me directly thru the link at:

http://www.ryanbrownracing.com


The normal flow rates for hole size verses cc/min are

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/editpost.ph ... o=editpost
xctasy wrote:the chart that shows all them plotted. Disregards the units. The chart should read 150 microns is 1.5 mm

Image

And specifically:The earlier standard jet sizes for Holley Webers are:-

103 cc/min=105 microns, or 41.34 thou
128 cc/min=110 microns, or 43.31 thou
152 cc/min=115 microns, or 45.28 thou
178 cc/min=120 microns, or 47.24 thou
201 cc/min=125 microns, or 49.21 thou
225 cc/min=130 microns, or 51.18 thou
251 cc/min=135 microns, or 53.15 thou
275 cc/min=140 microns, or 55.12 thou
298 cc/min=145 microns, or 57.09 thou
325 cc/min=150 microns, or 59.06 thou
346 cc/min=155 microns, or 61.02 thou
375 cc/min=160 microns, or 62.99 thou
400 cc/min=165 microns, or 64.96 thou
425 cc/min=170 microns, or 66.93 thou
450 cc/min=175 microns, or 68.90 thou
475 cc/min=180 microns, or 70.87 thou
525 cc/min=185 microns, or 72.83 thou


Find the average of the six jets you've drilled that give a good idle, and then find the same six Mikuni idle jets with the same flow rate. Mikunis quality control is awesome.

There are around 2500 jet combinations, this eliminates the search in a few sessions of idle checks.






K&N Mini/Midget 1275 dual SU air cleaner. 56-9055 or 11 4014.


Nice. The air cleaner helps draw air flow from the outer regions about the carb.


Been around A series since Day one. Morris Minor.....two ClubMans 998/1098, Mark II 998. How such an inefficent dawg can make 100 hp per liter at 7000 rpm is beyound me.


Tuning For Speed by Phil Irving tells you how to tune the Mikunis. Jack Collins old posts focused on how many potential resident idle circuit jets there are on such a sensitive set up.

Image


You just assume that it is making way mor vac and is much much richer because of the cam duration reduction and long runs into one intake valve....that means soldering up jets, trial checking, and then buying new ones. You'll get there. Contact Ron Ward and ask him what he ended up using.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyTHu3NkQIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-EVAnY7WKQ
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #25 by xctasy » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:01 pm

Oldsix and others. I like IR/POP. Not Igy Pop. Although slam dancing and crowd walking and getting naked on stage was I guess a progression in rock.

IR/POP = Independent Runner, Port on Port.

On Big engines, its a waste of time because of how much space it takes up.

This is not an they follow Appollus, I follow Paul, all others are wrong preach. Its about what works in systems, and if that means people are gonna blend philosphies, well that's on them.

For the record,
I'm straight down the line with Jeremy Diamond/Panics synopsus of big IR systems. They drop out as being practical from a packaging point of view on big engines.

I'm an Ak Miller advocate, he started out on the crazy Glasspar G2 Special with a "352" stroker 283 Chevy with 4" bores, 3.5" stroker crank, and six Deuce Stromberg 97's for 315 flywheel horspower net

Image

Image

Image


That's Twelve 23.8 mm venturis of 15/16ths, or 8.28 sq inches of carb venturi area on a 352 cube engine.

42 cubes of engine for every sqaure inch of carb. He made 972 cfm at 1.5'Hg work within the confines of the low hood. 162 cfm of Stromberg 97 2-bbl, six times. 229 cfm at 3" Hg each.

Miller was a six cylinder kind of guy generally, but was a total V8 die hard in terms of aspiration, and although his Four Keihin 37 mm carb 1967 Mustang fit up yielded 158 flywheel hp from just a mildly cammed and headered 200 six, it was actually a Port on Port on the outer carbs (feeding cylinders 1 and 6 via an offset 1-1/2" pipe, and One venturi per 2 cylinders feeding 2, 3, 4, 5). That's why it had some issues with a flat spot off idle.

Pure IR/POP systems have the most docile idle of any carb system, as well as the most potential power and torque. Less than port on port, you have to do some artificial freshing of the system, that's where Power Valves, accelerator pumps and sequential throttle modulation come in, but its a crutch. Pure IR/POP systems when tuned for venturi size at wide open throttle, are always the best out of the box.

WDoug72, you've got it going on, and your system answers the packaing issues. If you can get the carbs and offset the fresh cost if any other sucker was doing it from scratch, all good!

This is not an anti IR/POP tirade, its a point that IR/POP is actually really nice to the carb flow, in the same way Port EFI is nice to each intake runner flow. A good multiple Carb system that is less than Port on Port, like, say, a Triple 1-bbl In line six, can make just as much power and torque, but to do so requires very spacial work on cam timing. One venturi per 2 cylinders is where I'm at, and that's based on cost and space, and the Hot Rod US developments that Ak championed. I think that the Shelby and Ford Total Performance era found other Holley and some ill fated Autolite systems eventually proved that Independent runner, Port on Port systems could be beaten only by better manifold design and carb modulation.


But the misconception is this over IR/POP.



http://www.timsroadster.com/html/tuning_webers.html

There are some common misconceptions about Weber IDAs. I recall when I was designing the motor for my Cobra replica I was talking to a gentleman who is very highly regarded in the industry about my carburetion options. I told him that I was considering Weber IDAs. He was very adamant that the IDAs were a poor choice and went on to explain why. For my application (a 331 stroker small block Ford) the “traditional” carburetor might be a Holley 650 CFM four barrel. This carb has 4 bores that are approximately 43mm in diameter. A Weber IDA system for the same motor might use 8 bores that are maybe 40mm in diameter. He explained that the Webers would fall flat on their faces when nailing the throttle because they would suddenly be opening up nearly twice the throttle area of the Holley 4-barrel. This, he reasoned, would kill air velocity and therefore performance.

At first glance, his reasoning seems sound. But it’s actually not, and the reasons become clear if you think about it a little bit more. A motor demands air only one cylinder at a time. In a traditional 4-barrel setup, the carb is essentially only serving one cylinder at a time, and each cylinder “sees” all 4 barrels plus the entire manifold at WOT. In essence, this is just the opposite of what the expert explained to me. An engine with conventional carb sees far more area when the throttle is nailed than an engine with Webers. Consider an IDA on an individual runner. Each cylinder only “sees” its dedicated barrel and a very short manifold runner. It certainly doesn’t “see” any of the other independent barrels. This results in a very fast-moving air charge. Torque is a highly dependent on air velocity and high velocity increases torque. Since the runner is so short, the air can get moving very quickly, increasing throttle response. There is a reason that the Weber IDA on an independent runner manifold was the carburetor of choice for race cars prior to the advent of fuel injection. It provided the best torque, and throttle response – essential for a race car.
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #26 by xctasy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:41 am

chad wrote:agreed Econo.
Tuning (syncronising) them is no big deal with a hose, but there is a gadget called the Unisyn that takes all the guesswork out of the job.
But now I hear there's a Carter YH side draft (an early '60s thru '66 I've heard) that's reliable (just so many sizes it's hard to assure/ID the right one) used on early vetts too.


"...thought it may be helpful…"
Not ramblin. Like I said, it ALL helps !!!


The YH was never an Independent runner carb, but it was found on Stovebolt 53-55 Chevy Blue Flame Corvettes in one carb per two cylinder form, and on all the old Slant Six Dodge/Mopar forklift and stern drive boat engines, and many little Ford six boat engines too


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Carter YH - side draft

Post #27 by chad » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:57 pm

can the main jet @ .802 tell us anything about how this YH might perform a sextet on our motors? (or R we back to trips but side draft)?
U or Mike's Carbs sez this Carter wuz used on 'Vetts - 1 per 2 cylinders...

Is it a good option for the "1 per cyl" falcon motor? if so which of the 6 motors...
"...many little Ford six boat engines..."
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #28 by xctasy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:03 pm

Its a little to big to fit on the passenger side, but if its "rib-caged" with a six fingered Paul Knott style 61 Falcon 170 steel tubes to the log head, then you'll get six of them fairly easily on the drivers side. You support the whole shebang on some metal supports so the carbs don't fall off over the the bumbs of AirBorne Early Bronco Busting trail journey's

Tuning wise, its easy. Blackhawk make custom Metering rods (which are basically the wacky YS/YF/ WCD Carter Shepards Crook brass rods), and that's all you need to make them work. A source of six carbs the same, most likely from the 225 Forklift Mopar engines. The venturi and choke size would iIMHO be right on target. The pump calibration and details, well its just ball bearings and springs, and as long as the dreaded ethanol gas hasn't etched the Zinc Oxide, your good to go.
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #29 by chad » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:18 pm

:...a little to big..."
yeah, i wuz thinkin that
no, no, no 'rib caged' driver's side shnanigans, crazy in the pic, must B jaw droppin in person
:shock:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Carter YH - side draft

Post #30 by xctasy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:38 pm

chad wrote:can the main jet @ .802 tell us anything about how this YH might perform a sextet on our motors? (or R we back to trips but side draft)?
U or Mike's Carbs sez this Carter wuz used on 'Vetts - 1 per 2 cylinders...

Is it a good option for the "1 per cyl" falcon motor? if so which of the 6 motors...
"...many little Ford six boat engines..."



Just fine. Jetting goes crazy big when its Independent Runner, so the Corvette YH jetting might be in fact a little too small on a six YH Carter engine designed for 250 hp or more. Two YH's fed the common Y block 292/312 Interceptor V8's from the late 50's, early 60's.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77062
chad wrote:I grew up on the Chesapake Bay (1952 - '80) and saw some teake, mahogony and brass outfitted "skiffs" with motors
like those in the area. I wonder if there is a connection. The engine pictured is the 200?


Yes, the connection is this.

Image

While YH Carter was used on all the sports Corvairs, Corvette L6's, the Nash Healy, and then later Marinised Slant sixes and, IIRC, the later Clark and Hyster Forklifts. Due to space limitations of the Tea Pot 4-bbl carbs, Y blocks wouldn't fit boats easily. So Interceptor cobbled up the YH Carter to fit in the lowest slung intake manifold ever.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Interceptor "Eaton" Inboard I/0 engines till about 1964,the Ford I6's and the Y block V8's all had YH's in single of dual form.





(Note Well Interceptor opted out of the YH Carter totally when the 221 V8 came in for 1962,

Image

Image

Image

but that engine was very compact; one YH Manifold was made for the 221, and the planned Sunbeam Tiger and Interceptor SBF V8'S. Fords Autolite 2-bbl carbs were small enough to just fit under the engine covers or hoods)
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #31 by ludwig » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:09 pm

I wonder why that low-slung big block never caught on? That would make an awesome street fighter. And what a conversation piece when you pop the hood.

X-man - you need to collate all this arcana. What a trove of cool stuff!!!
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #32 by chad » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:04 pm

yh don't even look like a carb (to this non-mechanic)
the boar is BESIDE the bowel

It helps create it's own 'cross-flow' on that motor,
avoids the 60s/70s low hood issue on fords (in bent8 only I guess)
&, as stated - would need to B in the 'ribs' style (or other 'remote')
as will not fit against inner fender/shock tower in our rigs ('60 falcon -
'82 Zepher'n fox bodied).

May B need 2 or 3 on a 250 or 300 w/that jeting...?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #33 by xctasy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:02 am

ludwig wrote:I wonder why that low-slung big block never caught on? That would make an awesome street fighter. And what a conversation piece when you pop the hood.

X-man - you need to collate all this arcana. What a trove of cool stuff!!!


I wouldn't worry about it...Automotive Historians do this kinda stuff often.Its Out There if you wanna dabble.....


Image
Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuhKPyhdqKE

The Dearborn Marine Interceptors were exy little engines. 215 HP gross in the 312 wasn't much chop compared to a Fuelie 327, so evn though they were built to 1964, the Y's were glorious looking, expensive anachronisims.
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #34 by xctasy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:12 am

http://m571.com/yblock/intake.htm
http://m571.com/yblock/intake.htm wrote:Interceptor

Interceptor

This marine manifold used Carter YH sidedraft carburetors to keep the installed height to a minimum. Some installations used only one carburetor. YH sidedrafts were also used on turbocharged Corvairs, 215 F85 Oldsmobiles, Corvette “Blue Flame” 6s, and Nash Le Mans 6s. Exhaust heat is passed under the cross runner of this unit.

Interceptor on Thunderbird

This beautiful Interceptor intake installation on a Thunderbird was accomplished by Gary Hartzell of LA Mesa, California.

In Gary’s own words:

Image

Image

Image




“Wanted to do something out of the ordinary. Went to the Goodguys show at Del Mar last weekend (first show) and stumped a lot of Ford know-it-alls!!!!! One guy asked if I had to do anything special to make it run right and I told him I had to fill the radiator with salt water!! I had to fab my own necks to the radiator, but the installation wasn't too difficult at all and the results were well worth it.”
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one carb per cyl: how 2 doit on Y block

Post #35 by chad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:08 am

i no they circulated sea water but Y did the auto (T-bird) need to use it?

Went to the link (m571.com) and saw over a doz intakes. Of the Y block I saw our bent8 buddies use "1 per cyl" on three:

Edelbrock FM657
Weaned Dragstar
Offenhauser 3947

that's alotta cfm!
YH used on only 1?
Last edited by chad on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #36 by xctasy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:00 am

chad wrote:i no they circulated sea water but Y did the auto (T-bird) need to use it?
Primarily to look cool, and mess up show goers.

Really mess them up goood

The Interceptor Y-block intake was born a Marine V8 intake, and had to be converted to a pro street style twin line to fit an automotive Thunderbird 312 Y block.

Back to the YH's....Mopar Slants weren't YH equiped if the engine was mounted at 30 degrees,

Image

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-111 ... ep-six-001


even if it was canted a further 50 degrees to a wacky 80 degrees, just 10 degrees of being a flat six of sorts.

It still ran the 2-bbl Carter BDB carb.

Image

Image

But the Nash Ambassador Le-Mans was.
Image


More on the single YH carb Interceptor 100 144cube engine

Image


Image


Image



Gray Marine Co. used dual sidedraft Carter YH on the AMC 327 engines
Image

Image
Image


Image
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #37 by chad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:31 am

re-viewin da pic in ur #26 post above, X, I C a way 2 use the YH in "1 per cyl".
(They use a side draft like a down draft - to me, anyway. Again may not have the proper nomenclature).

If placed on a 90* adapter (like on the #26 post) the log could B retained. The carbs could B arranged left/right/left, etc all the way down the log.
I believe this may take up abt the same hight as my RBS (or the other low mount carb: 1100) plus___?___ inches.

Linkage? wtf? a buncha cable throttles...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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one carb per cyl - 2 mopowr motors w/o 'multis'

Post #38 by chad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:43 am

no mistaking that blue motor in #36 - it's from my '64 & '66 Dart wagons. Wish the 'falcon' had the same style intake
(gotta go south for 1 of those on ours - waaaay south).
:|
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #39 by xctasy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:56 am

chad wrote:re-viewin da pic in ur #26 post above, X, I C a way 2 use the YH in "1 per cyl".
(They use a side draft like a down draft - to me, anyway. Again may not have the proper nomenclature).

If placed on a 90* adapter (like on the #26 post) the log could B retained. The carbs could B arranged left/right/left, etc all the way down the log.
I believe this may take up abt the same hight as my RBS (or the other low mount carb: 1100) plus___?___ inches.

Linkage? wtf? a buncha cable throttles...

:nod: :hmmm:


Well you could

1. mount four down low for a start...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Nash Healy had it...a log head with twin YH's

Image


See http://forums.aaca.org/topic/234294-195 ... or/?page=2

The Le Mans duel jet fire motor was offered from 1953 to 1956

Nash built 3 series of cars during the early and mid-fifties; Statesman, Ambassador, and Rambler. Rambler had their own styling; Ambassador and Statesman lines were hard to tell apart.

1955 Statesman Six Dual Carb. Figures same as the standard six but with dual Carter single barrel carbs. Front carb was a YH-973S; rear carb was a YH-974S. Brake hp 110.

1955 Ambassador Six. Inline, OHV. Displacement 252.6 cid. Brake HP Brake HP 130. Carter Single barrel carb YH-895-S. 1955 Dual-Jetfire Six. Displace 252.6 cid. Brake HP 140. Carburetors same as the Statesman Six Dual Carb.

1956 Ambassador Six. Displacement 252.6. HP 135. Carter single-barrel, Type YH-2368S.

1956 LeMans Dual-Jetfire Six. Displacement 252.6. Brake hp 145. 2 Carter Type YH-2396S carbs.

There were single YH Dual Jetfires too

Image

Image


2. Then two up high. (front to back like the 215 Interceptor and the 100 Interceptor).

Carburetor Tag Set, 973S & 974S Originals. 52-55 Nash Ambassador Dual Jetfire

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Tag- ... 1866645557
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #40 by chad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:34 pm

kouwell
I think we got off the '1 carb per" on #25 or 26th post...
YH is an interesting 1 ferser
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #41 by woodbutcher » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:30 pm

:hmmm: Hi Chad.I noticed that you referenced the S&S brand.When and if you check them out,I would suggest that you have the heart attack squad handy.Last prices that I saw on those was pushing about IIRC $400.00 each.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #42 by chad » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:25 pm

Thanks!weren't they HD motorcycle's?
I'll hafta google them...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: one carb per cyl - various falcon motors

Post #43 by woodbutcher » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:01 am

:D Yep.They were used on Harleys but they were not made by Harley,S&S was the maker IIRC.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo
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