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New headers, lower top end

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1strodeo
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New headers, lower top end

Post #1 by 1strodeo » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:51 pm

Installed CI headers and thrush turbo mufflers, ran dual exhaust out in front of rear tires, sounds great!! But took it on 2 mile stretch of highway and ALL she had was 65mph on level ground!! Stock manifold and single exhaust I could hit 75 if I wanted to, always held her below 70 for safety reasons. Also I keep blowing exhaust manifold gaskets between 3-4 exhaust ports, will the Clifford wedge help with that? Or is it a matter of manifold vs header mating surface? Thanks

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Port Divider advantage(s)

Post #2 by chad » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:57 pm

1strodeo wrote:...Also I keep blowing exhaust manifold gaskets between 3-4 exhaust ports, will the Clifford wedge help with that? Or is it a matter of manifold vs header mating surface? Thanks

Yes, I believe so. That's the only (proven?) advantage in my mind (no 1 has been able to document a power increase frm the port divider it'self). It DOES get the hole down to match the others ~ 1 inch sq design & direct the hot gasses tho. I'm finding (this wkend) that there's more hand work to fitting the thing than I understood. I've been using a straight sided burr on both the head and the 'wedge' as U call it. Cleaning up the groves in the exhaust to slide in the divider & grinding down the shape & sides of the divider to slide into the port…

I thought it would fit easier and the most work would be on bringing the "T" surface down to match the port's surface to-mate the-header flange. Ol arthritic hands gave out but I am gettin close to that final step.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #3 by Econoline » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:25 pm

I put in studs with long bronze nuts when I rebuilt my engine and I've tightened them three times now in 600 miles. I just did it and each time the middle turned the most and easy. I'm tying to avoid blowing the gasket out by keeping an eye or wrench on it. I haven't had leaks yet. I was surprised they still needed snugged the last time after 500 miles. Always the middle needs the most and the very outsides need next to none. Stock manifold. With any exhaust gasket on any engine they need to be heat cycled and tightened cold a couple of times. Cast iron is more forgiving b/c it mimic's the block's thermal characteristics. When we would replace cast wet manifolds on mercruisers we would retorque them at least once and it worked. But I always felt like they would like another. But it wasn't a problem. Headers on any engine are notorious for needing re-torqued forever. The 3-4 hole with 3 bolts and narrow faying surfaces, in general, across all of the ports on these heads makes it harder to get a good seal. It should hold if they're both flat and it isn't loose. That's the story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:07 pm

1strodeo wrote:Installed CI headers and thrush turbo mufflers, ran dual exhaust out in front of rear tires, sounds great!! But took it on 2 mile stretch of highway and ALL she had was 65mph on level ground!! Stock manifold and single exhaust I could hit 75 if I wanted to, always held her below 70 for safety reasons. Also I keep blowing exhaust manifold gaskets between 3-4 exhaust ports, will the Clifford wedge help with that? Or is it a matter of manifold vs header mating surface? Thanks


You will probally need to do some retuning as the headers are more efficient and usally require a jetting change. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #5 by turbo2256b » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:05 am

The exhaust manifold surface of the head may have needed surfaced.

Yes tweaking the carb most likely needed but too large of an exhaust is another issue. Dual 2" can easily be to large especially on a rather mild build. Running close to 200 HP in a 200 found equal length dual outlet headers ran best making my own very long smooth Y pipe merged into a RH exhaust from a Boss 302 worked best.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #6 by B RON CO » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:47 am

Hi, good advice so far. Just put a heat cycle in it and snug them down. Check timing. Run it without the air cleaner. A plenum spacer under the carb can make the engine act as though there is a bigger carb. Now you may be running lean so be careful at wide open throttle. Check a couple plugs after your test flight. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #7 by CZLN6 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm

HOwdy Back 1st rodeo and all:

I'm trying to recall, is this on the original, tired 170 engine or ????. What carb are you using on this road test? Any other changes along with the header/exhaust install? You do your plugs look? What is your initial timining set at on the DS II ignition?

Yes, both truing the mating surface of the exhaust manifold and using the port divider will help with sealing. Retightening after heat cycling will likely be necessary. Also tighten the manifold/header from the inside/ middle bolts to the outside/ends will help too.

Keep it coming.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #8 by 1strodeo » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:10 pm

Thanks to each and all...it is in fact the '66 170 that is most likely original to the vehicle. All I know about the engine for sure is that all cylinders measure 115-120 psi, I think they measure 150+ original/after rebuild?? but I'm thinking 120 is respectable enough to keep running it. Anyway yes I only did the header mod, I like to do things one at a time to see what happens. Everything mentioned thus far makes sense. Next will be the Offy install...maybe I shoulda just included this in that thread...oops

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #9 by wsa111 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:28 pm

The CI headers have a 1 5/8" primary pipes which are too large for a 170 & a 200 with an iron head. A 200 with a CI head with mods can handle that size.
You really need headers with a 1 1/2" primaries, like Hooker Headers full length primaries.
You need to check your A/F ratio for being too lean.
As CZLN6 stated keep checking header bolts from the inside to the end many time during the first week of use till the header gasket seats.
Otherwise you need to use felpro or Hooker header gaskets.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #10 by chad » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:41 am

wsa111 wrote:...Otherwise you need to use felpro or Hooker header gaskets.

What about Mike's "special" gasket.
Matt sent me the original and a 'special' one.
Treat that any different?
Y is it so much better?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #11 by wsa111 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:15 pm

chad wrote:
wsa111 wrote:...Otherwise you need to use felpro or Hooker header gaskets.

What about Mike's "special" gasket.
Matt sent me the original and a 'special' one.
Treat that any different?
Y is it so much better?

You tell me, I have Hooker Headers & their gaskets are excellent.
Mike might have used Corteco or had a special one make.
Post a picture of those 2 gaskets you mentioned.
Either the problem is not tightening many times after installation, header flange not true, or a gasket problem??
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #12 by 1strodeo » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:59 pm

chad wrote:
wsa111 wrote:...Otherwise you need to use felpro or Hooker header gaskets.

What about Mike's "special" gasket.
Matt sent me the original and a 'special' one.
Treat that any different?
Y is it so much better?


I did talk to Matt about the 2 gaskets (I didn't take a pic) he said it was one that Mike found/designed/made in the past that worked better than the one they came with, which was usually damaged in shipment anyway, so he includes one of "Mike's" gaskets in each box. This is the one I used, but I tried to re-use it and that may be part of the problem.

Where can I order the Hooker gaskets?

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #13 by chad » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:45 pm

1strodeo wrote: Where can I order the Hooker gaskets?

summit, jegs, performance parts.
Just make sure it's for the right motor/headers.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #14 by bmbm40 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:42 pm

Do you do much off roading and if so what kind of terrain? If you frequently drive on very steep dirt roads with loose rocks the transition from 1 carb to 3 when pressing on the gas could cause some excitement when you don't want it.
But it would be fun on pavement.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #15 by 1strodeo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:33 am

bmbm40 wrote:Do you do much off roading and if so what kind of terrain? If you frequently drive on very steep dirt roads with loose rocks the transition from 1 carb to 3 when pressing on the gas could cause some excitement when you don't want it.
But it would be fun on pavement.


Nope will be pretty much all pavement, but hopefully if I do off road I'll get a reminder to disconnect the linkage before I get into trouble

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #16 by bmbm40 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:55 pm

What are the details on your ignition system? In addition to rejetting or new carbs a custom curved DSII might be what you need to get the most out of what you have.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #17 by 1strodeo » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:37 pm

I have a DS ignition system out of a combination of 78-79 Fairmonts, 1100 currently on engine is SCV so vacuum lines are all plugged...carbs I'm rebuilding are non-SCV sooo

One guy on the bronco site suggested using vacuum to open the secondary carbs?? Anyone done that?

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #18 by Econoline » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:07 pm

Vacuum solenoid operating the secondary carbs linkage? Sounds cool
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #19 by 1strodeo » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:07 pm

Here are pics of each plug, not purty...thoughts? What causes the oil on (some of) the threads? bad oil ring? that wouldn't make sense because the oil seems to be more on the outer threads vs the combustion chamber end. Pics are in reverse order, starting with #6 thanks

PS for the record I increased the gap to .050" when I installed the duraspark...too much?

Jeff
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #20 by turbo2256b » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:27 pm

Oil often comes from a leaky valve cover gasket on plug threads. Looks also like you have too much total timing. The ground strap should turn dark half way through the curve (not past it) indicates proper total timing.

How many miles are on the engine how many on the plugs?

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #21 by 1strodeo » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:03 pm

I thought so too but no evidence whatsoever of a valve cover leak. Plugs have well under 500 miles on them. Engine is likely stock 66 but hasn't been driven more than 1,000 miles in 20 yrs, odo reads 96k but who knows, all I know is compression is about 120 across all cylinders.
What do you mean by ground strap?

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #22 by turbo2256b » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:01 am

The ground strap is the finger weled to the rim of the plug and centered over the center electrode.
How clean is the fuel tank / system. The deposits on the plugs could be contamination?
Leaks from the valve cover gaskets can be difficult to detect.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #23 by 1strodeo » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:02 pm

fuel system was completely replaced by previous owner, but i suppose some fuel system additive wouldn't hurt.

Back when I adjusted all the valves and set the timing, I did not set it by the book necessarily but set it to where it ran the smoothest. Is this wrong? Should I set timing by the book then adjust the carb if running rough? Timing is just something Ive never been able to wrap my head around, especially with vacuum advance. I understand engine theory very well, have rebuilt a few engines, but never fully grasped timing stuff.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #24 by RichCreations » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:15 pm

1strodeo wrote:fuel system was completely replaced by previous owner, but i suppose some fuel system additive wouldn't hurt.

Back when I adjusted all the valves and set the timing, I did not set it by the book necessarily but set it to where it ran the smoothest. Is this wrong? Should I set timing by the book then adjust the carb if running rough? Timing is just something Ive never been able to wrap my head around, especially with vacuum advance. I understand engine theory very well, have rebuilt a few engines, but never fully grasped timing stuff.

smoothest is likely too advanced...

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #25 by turbo2256b » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:06 pm

The way todays fuel burns it likes more initial advance less total than the old days in most cases. Basically just the opposite of the old specks more like as much as 16 to 20* initial and like 32 to 36 total. The Load O matic dizzys this can be a bit dificult.

As for and additive I recommend 4Aces pricey but its the best i have used and works better than stabilizer to preserve fuel over time.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #26 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:12 pm

Yes .050 plug gap is a bit much! The Ford factory setting for a stock DuraSpark II system is .044 (this is what I normally use). In my opion there usally isn't a good reason to use more than a .044 to .045 spark plug gap. What did you set your Rocker arm clearance too on your 170? If it's a solid lifter cam the stock Ford spec is .016 Hot if your running them looser or tighter then your giving up some performance. If it's a Hydrolic lifter cam with adjustable Rockers then I set them to Zero Lash plus a 1/4 turn with the engine warmed up good. If the rockers are not adjustable then it's likely ok as is. Getting the timing right is very important to both performance and economy X3 more base timing over the stock setting is needed. First after you make all the settings above then lastly you can dial in the carb. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #27 by 1strodeo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:36 pm

When I was looking into the Duraspark upgrade I read (in more than one forum) that you could set the gap to .045-.055, so I thought .050 would be safe. I imagine I can lessen the gap carefully.

Is there a way to tell which type lifters you have without pulling a push rod and looking? Its a 66 170 more than likely original to the Bronco...thought I read somewhere that all the 170's after '65 were hydraulic, but not 100% if that included truck engines.

Thanks,
Jeff

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #28 by ledslinger29 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:29 pm

Jeff,
My 68 has a 170, and has solid lifters. I'm reasonably certain, after doing a little research, that Ford never put hydraulic lifters in Bronco 170s. My block wasn't coded for a truck, it was coded for a Falcon, I believe, and the the oil gallery is there for hydraulic lifters, but it doesn't have them. it will when I'm done with this build, as the oil gallery makes it capable of handling hydraulics. Hope this helps.
68 Bronco Halfcab 170 wallered out .060 over, oversized valves, zero decked, 9:1 SCR, Autolite 1100 w/ Loadomatic/Pertronix, Schneider 248/56H cam

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #29 by 1strodeo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:05 pm

Thanks I think thats where I got the 'car-only' theory was from your 170.

Another question, since the auto choke connects to the exhaust manifold, has anyone connected it to a header? Or should I just cap it off and go without? Think I have a metal line from that crappy '66 200 I bought

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #30 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:07 pm

You can make a choke stove pipe easy from a piece of brake line tubing of the correct size plus the existing choke covers nut along with a new farel. Then you shape the tubing to fit and just coil the other end around one of the header tubes 3 or more times if you still have the cloth insulating tube install that too. You can also get a universal choke stove repair kit from many of the auto parts stores in there Help brand section or at your local NAPA dealer too. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #31 by 1strodeo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:48 pm

like this? are v8 pics allowed :?:
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #32 by woodbutcher » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:54 pm

:D Yep.That should work.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #33 by chad » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:29 pm

no, no bent8s allowed (joke, we luv ALL pic).
I'd wrape it around lill more…
there R no "car" v "truck" motors of the sz.s U mention, both same.
EDIT:
o0OPP, I C now it goes beyond the black part I saw as the terminus...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #34 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:41 pm

:beer: that choke hook up would be a real winner. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #35 by 1strodeo » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:40 pm

ledslinger29 wrote:Jeff,
My 68 has a 170, and has solid lifters. I'm reasonably certain, after doing a little research, that Ford never put hydraulic lifters in Bronco 170s. My block wasn't coded for a truck, it was coded for a Falcon, I believe, and the the oil gallery is there for hydraulic lifters, but it doesn't have them. it will when I'm done with this build, as the oil gallery makes it capable of handling hydraulics. Hope this helps.


You're right the Falcon Club Wagon/Econoline/RV(Bronco) shop manual states solid lifters for the 170, hydraulic for the 240. Thats what i used when i set my valves to .016" a while back.

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #36 by ledslinger29 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:03 am

Good to get some positive confirmation!
68 Bronco Halfcab 170 wallered out .060 over, oversized valves, zero decked, 9:1 SCR, Autolite 1100 w/ Loadomatic/Pertronix, Schneider 248/56H cam

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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #37 by fast64ranchero » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:55 am

Use this gasket and you will no longer have header gasket issues. Best gasket I have ever used for headers.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remflex-Exhaust ... 46599d8cb8
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Re: New headers, lower top end

Post #38 by turbo2256b » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:41 am

1strodeo wrote:like this? are v8 pics allowed :?:


The only thing I MIGHT worry about with this set up is dirt and water being sucked into the carb as this type of choke systems runs off a vacuum from the carb

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