Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Moderator: Mod Squad

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #1 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:29 pm

We had a joint effort (I don't mean anyone was smoking anything) looking for an aftermarket rod for the 200 and drag-200stang found that the Toyota 1JZ rod would be a good candidate.

4.931" center to center
2.166" BE bore for the 2.047" crank pin
1.020" BE Width
1.00 PE width.
22mm pin
Comes in sets of six.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4128
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #2 by chad » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:47 pm

"good" according to what?
exact length
to get closer - as an alternative to machining a zero deck
beefier
lighter
less expensive
etc
?
Oh, wait, I C U have some specs...I thought that wuz yer sig...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative aftermarket 200 six connecting rod

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:54 pm

You're right.
I should have added that we were looking for a stronger rod that would hold up to turbocharging or any other extreme high performance application in the form of aftermarket 4340 steel "H" beams
The other consideration is having a performance rod that doesn't cost much more than than resizing the stock rod with ARP bolts, polished beams and shot peening.

User avatar
rocklord
Registered User
Posts: 1276
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:25 pm
Location: Hurricane, WV

Re: Alternative aftermarket 200 six connecting rod

Post #4 by rocklord » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:12 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You're right.
I should have added that we were looking for a stronger rod that would hold up to turbocharging or any other extreme high performance application in the form of aftermarket 4340 steel "H" beams
The other consideration is having a performance rod that doesn't cost much more than than resizing the stock rod with ARP bolts, polished beams and shot peening.


Like these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-Rod ... 1Q&vxp=mtr
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:15 pm

Yep, like those and several others that are available.
Obviously the rods would require custom forged pistons but a person would most likely be going that route anyway for performance build.

Does anyone know what the big end width is for the 200 connecting rod?

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4128
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #6 by chad » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:50 am

Thanks!
is there a place here to assemble these 'alternatives" & their benefits? may B even prt #s, prices and companies?
A catalogue of sorts (for Matt to supply us or just as an access point)... :hmmm:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:03 pm

Benefits;
The stock rod is 4.715" with a rod length to stroke ratio of 1.5
The aftermarket "H" beam rod is 4.931" which increases the rod length to stroke ratio to 1.58.
The piston side loading is decreased which is very important to those doing forced induction or high rpm engines.
The longer rod postions the piston pin at a 1.31" CH which is plenty room for rings.

The stock rod or "I" beams in general have a tendancy to bend sideways just below the small end especially if detenation is encounted.
Case in point: During a tuning session on our blown alky engine the engine went lean and bent 6 out of 8 Callies Ultra XD "I" beam rods that have angle arches from the small end to the beam to prevent bending. We changed to a different design and never had the problem again even under detonation.
The "H" beams handle high torque loads better.
I'm not really sure why I'm doing this paragragh when there is no real comparision between the stock rod and a 4340 steel "H" beam rod.

If you google "Toyota 1JZGTE connecting rods" you will find most of the brands with prices ranging from $300 to $1800.
The rod sets that are under $300 do not come with rod bolts so the buyer can select between the different grades of ARP bolts.
The cost of polishing the beam, shot peening and resizing the stock rod with ARP bolts is close to the cost of the low price aftermarket "H" beam rod.

If you have a 250 six then the 6.135" BBC 2.100" journal rod has similar benefits.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 8440
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #8 by bubba22349 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:50 pm

:thumbup: great info maybe we should start a few sticky’s for different engine build parts combos. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:28 pm

Does someone know the big end width of the stock 200 rod?

67Straightsix
Registered User
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:46 pm

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #10 by 67Straightsix » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:40 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Does someone know the big end width of the stock 200 rod?


The big end width measures .992".

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:03 am

67Straightsix wrote:The big end width measures .992".

Thanks 67Straightsix
Just needed to be sure.

The aftermarket rods will fit the crankshaft by either taking .014" off each side of the rod's big end or off of each cheek of the crank throw.
The crank rod journal gets turned down to 2.047" with a finished diameter for the correct bearing clearance.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 8440
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #12 by bubba22349 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:37 pm

And maybe also offset grinding the crank throws for a small gain in stroke while your at it! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
cr_bobcat
Registered User
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:13 am
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #13 by cr_bobcat » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:39 pm

Dagnabbit....eBay just ran a 20% off deal a few days ago. If I were on top of things I would have snagged a set... :bang:
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

Build that Six with parts from http://www.vintageinlines.com

User avatar
cr_bobcat
Registered User
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:13 am
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #14 by cr_bobcat » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:07 am

So has there been any movement here on someone trying one of these alternatives yet? Just curious.
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

Build that Six with parts from http://www.vintageinlines.com

66contriviad-coupe
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #15 by 66contriviad-coupe » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:30 pm

cr_bobcat wrote:Dagnabbit....eBay just ran a 20% off deal a few days ago. If I were on top of things I would have snagged a set... :bang:


I actually did pick up a set during one of those sales. Got the discount plus had a gift card! Figured it was worth a shot for the amount of actual cash I spent...

I read a ton about that company maxpeedingrods (well, all that I could find...pretty scarce on information). An MG site had some dude that did some testing on them and said they are what they claim to be as far as he could tell (including verification that the bolts are genuine ARP...can find the link if anyone wants). Some claim they are the factory for eagle. Was pretty wary going in because of some stuff my dad's friends went through with Chinese made Chevy heads.

They came in last night and stunk the house up. Haven't weighed them...but the rods look nice enough. I'll take them with the engine to the machine shop when I get my head milled and see what they think. Probably going to use Clay Smith being they ain't that far away and were awesome over the phone.

Just gotta coordinate a trip in my wife's current car since I tore apart this mustang :lol:
1966 Mustang Coupe
- [200 small log, Holley 1940, pertronix]

66contriviad-coupe
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #16 by 66contriviad-coupe » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:32 pm

First off, appologies to fast64ranchero. I don't have enough posts yet to reply to PMs.

I did some math though (kind of thinking about cam/rod combination):

Just going off some stock values from the tech archive:

Stock:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.715
- static compression ratio (SCR): 8.5:1 (guesstimate)
- dynamic compression ratio (DCR): 7.53:1
- roughly stock cam 252 @ 110, 4 degrees adv

With 1JZ Supra Rods:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.929
- SCR: 9.5:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.88:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv: 7.61:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv: 7.94:1
- SCR: 9.1:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.56:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv 7.30:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv 8.29
Those cam profiles are Clay Smith.

Don't know if that's helpful and it's all estimates and playing around with some online calcs. This article was kind of informative as to why people would choose one or the other.: http://blog.diamondracing.net/understan ... aft-stroke

Living in California with our super extreme 91 octane, I've gotta plan ahead or be forced into a water/meth setup or something. I'm also kind of "directed" by the wife's choice of keeping the C4 (which is why 112 LSA). Seems like I'll get more options for tuning with the longer rods because of the kind of "dwell" at the bottom and top...but I think that I'll start running into valve clearance of I keep bumping up the static compression (of course, there are pistons that could help too).

For turbo or supercharged where static compression stays a bit lower, seems like a perfect fit (part of my thoughts about going this direction was a "just in case, plan ahead thing").

If I'm completely wrong or something, let me know. I'm learning too! Haha.

I haven't been able to get to the rebuild yet because I've got a 19 month old. The time I've had has been devoted to the brakes and rear end. My wife only wanted to be able to stop and turn with power. I've also been kinda scouring the Google maps and local errand drives for closer machine shops with better hours (surprisingly hard to get any kind of information down in LA sometimes). Should be in October though!

I'm a rambler sometimes.

Edit: fixed some typos.
Last edited by 66contriviad-coupe on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1966 Mustang Coupe
- [200 small log, Holley 1940, pertronix]

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:54 pm

The two primary reasons for the longer Supra rods is:
The longer rod reduces the rod angle which reduces the side loading on the 200 six.
The stronger than stock rod allows those with the aluminun heads and/or power adders to push the limits of the 200.

Those rods also require a custom piston so you get to choose the SCR.
The most economical forged pistons will be 4032 alloy pistons from Autotec.

The valves are recessed in the head far enough that most cams will not create a valve to piston clearance issue.
It is always a good thing to check anyway.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 8440
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:12 pm

66contriviad-coupe wrote:First off, appologies to fast64ranchero. I don't have enough posts yet to reply to PMs.

I did some math though (kind of thinking about cam/rod combination):

Just going off some stock values from the tech archive:

Stock:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.715
- static compression ratio (SCR): 8.5:1 (guesstimate)
- dynamic compression ratio (DCR): 7.53:1
- roughly stock cam 252 @ 110, 4 degrees adv

With 1JZ Supra Rods:
- stroke: 3.126
- bore: 3.68
- rod length: 4.929
- SCR: 9.5:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.88:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv: 7.61:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv: 7.94:1
- SCR: 9.1:1
    DCR 264D 112 at 4 adv: 7.56:1
    DCR 274S 112 at 4 adv 7.30:1
    DCR STOCK at 4 adv 8.29
Those cam profiles are Clay Smith.

Don't know if that's helpful and it's all estimates and playing around with some online calcs. This article was kind of informative as to why people would choose one or the other.: http://blog.diamondracing.net/understan ... aft-stroke

Living in California with our super extreme 91 octane, I've gotta plan ahead or be forced into a water/meth setup or something. I'm also kind of "directed" by the wife's choice of keeping the C4 (which is why 112 LSA). Seems like I'll get more options for tuning with the longer rods because of the kind of "dwell" at the bottom and top...but I think that I'll start running into valve clearance of I keep bumping up the static compression (of course, there are pistons that could help too).

For turbo or supercharged where static compression stays a bit lower, seems like a perfect fit (part of my thoughts about going this direction was a "just in case, plan ahead thing").

If I'm completely wrong or something, let me know. I'm learning too! Haha.

I haven't been able to get to the rebuild yet because I've got a 19 month old. The time I've had has been devoted to the brakes and rear end. My wife only wanted to be able to stop and turn with power. I've also been kinda scouring the Google maps and local errand drives for closer machine shops with better hours (surprisingly hard to get any kind of information down in LA sometimes). Should be in October though!

I'm a rambler sometimes.

Edit: fixed some typos.


To your above specs you can add that

Stock 1966 200 head has a 52 CC Combustion Chamber
Stock 200 steel shim head gasket is .022
Pistion is down the hole .019
200 Piston Dish is 6.5 CC I think
The stock 200 Compression Ratio is 8.7 to 1

Good luck on your project :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

66contriviad-coupe
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #19 by 66contriviad-coupe » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:29 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
To your above specs you can add that

Stock 1966 200 head has a 52 CC Combustion Chamber
Stock 200 steel shim head gasket is .022
Pistion is down the hole .019
200 Piston Dish is 6.5 CC I think
The stock 200 Compression Ratio is 8.7 to 1

Good luck on your project :thumbup: :nod:


I think I have the thermacor/smog head with whatever is in there. Somewhere I had read it was 8.5. good to know that it is probably 8.7. It ain't staying that though. Thanks for the heads up. I can actually verify what it is at some point. Deck isnt blocked and it had a felpro. (I guess my use of stock may be wrong). :beer:
Thanks bubba22349!

pmuller9 wrote:Your DCR calculations are good except you need to swap figures between the 9.1 and 9.5 SCR.

The two primary reasons for the longer Supra rods is:
The longer rod reduces the rod angle which reduces the side loading on the 200 six.
The stronger than stock rod allows those with the aluminun heads and/or power adders to push the limits of the 200.

Those rods also require a custom piston so you get to choose the SCR.
The most economical forged pistons will be 4032 alloy pistons from Autotec.

The valves are recessed in the head far enough that most cams will not create a valve to piston clearance issue.
It is always a good thing to check anyway.


Thanks for catching the typo on my transcription with the 9.1/9.5 swap. Copy/paste/formatting skills have failed!

Totally was planning for Autotec pistons...kind of just thinking out loud about pistons clearance issues and to keep that in mind when I go to the machine shop and have them measure out for pistons. I have Yella Terra 1.65 and that 274 Clay Smith cam advertises 0.495 @ 1.65:1 ratio and I had read on either the tech archive or the handbook 0.500 was a safe distance (can't remember and haven't verified).

I'm on the list for the aluminum head, but I'm probably going to have to go forward with the cast iron one (1969) until I get a notification. I guess I'm somewhat trying to maximize my performance now with some plan down the road.

Thanks pmuller9 and drag-200stang for sending me down this path though (and doing the intial research). It's given me a lot to think about and learn. Pretty cool stuff.

I'll take some pictures at some point soon. I did weigh the new rods on my little digital scale. They seemed pretty darn spot on but I don't know of the scale is super precise (good enough to mail guitar pedals via USPS) or if they all balanced the same top/bottom-wise because I don't know how to do that.
1966 Mustang Coupe
- [200 small log, Holley 1940, pertronix]

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 2429
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:21 pm

From fast64ranchero

Image
Image
Image

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4128
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

MR X connecting rod

Post #21 by chad » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:39 pm

G.D.,
Nice lookin jewelry.
Think I'd wear it around my neck ona string...
8^ )
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
rocklord
Registered User
Posts: 1276
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:25 pm
Location: Hurricane, WV

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #22 by rocklord » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:40 am

Another alternative to the 200 six connecting rod is the Pinto 2.0L connecting rod.
The 2.0L rod length is 4.977", the big end is 2.1654", and the small end is 24mm.
There are custom H rods available in 5.050" length and 25.97 mm width.

Hope this helps.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

fast64ranchero
Registered User
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:58 am
Location: Boise ID

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #23 by fast64ranchero » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:00 am

rocklord wrote:Another alternative to the 200 six connecting rod is the Pinto 2.0L connecting rod.
The 2.0L rod length is 4.977", the big end is 2.1654", and the small end is 24mm.
There are custom H rods available in 5.050" length and 25.97 mm width.

Hope this helps.


I looked for early EAO 2.0L pinto rods, I was unable to find stock length unless I went through Burton in the UK. looks like everyone goes to 5.050" and that's a tad too long for a good ring pack on a custom piston.

If you could find some, the stock length would work, (and you wouldn't have to say I have Toyota rods in my Ford Engine :lol:)
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

drag-200stang
Registered User
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Alternative 200 six connecting rod

Post #24 by drag-200stang » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 pm

The pinto rods are a direction to go but do not seem to be as readily available...The 24mm pin is not as the popular as 22mm with more wall thickness selections...I believe the pinto big end is wider than the 1jz which is already too wide...When I was researching a better rod all I could find is the 1jz and the high performance rod mfg. by me had some on the shelf in a six pac...
Something i noticed is what is listed for the big end and pin end on the 1jz is about .0004 different than the 2jz which I thought was odd, it maybe just a print mistake...Just make sure the the bearing you get fits your rod with the right crush and the pin you get fits the rod you have with the proper clearance.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests