No offence just young curiosity

A

Anonymous

Guest
I was wondering if ricers (with 4 bangers) can pull close to 200 hp with simple mods and V6 can have 150 hp stock so why is the I6 struggling? And ofcourse their are benefits to this powerplant but can someone please point them out to this misguided blind youth. any input is welcome
 
well...we are talking abotu 30 year differences. The I6 is an old engine...the newer 4 cylinders are leaps and bounds ahead in technology. The is why the I6 is so behind...it was designed 40 years ago...

It has nothing to do with being inline.

Slade
 
This is my humble opinion, from what I've seen out there most 4 cylinder engines come with 100-130hp (at the flywheel) . With performance bolt ons can go up to 150-170 .Import engines are modern engines with all the components optimized and the latest technology like VVT-i (variable timing) and VTEC (variable valve timing). Also you have to remember that Hp is not what makes cars go fast. It's torque, and modern 4 cylinders even though they can have 200Hp @ 7000 rpm, they have very undesirable torque figures. Just think of it this way a bone stock 200 six has 190 lb.ft. at only 2000 rpm .

Alex
 
thx for the input guys
:D :eek: :LOL:
btw I saw a formula on the web to calculate 0 - 60 times

2 times weight divided by torque and all this is the power of.6

down any body know the units of this equation?
 
units are

1, Weight of car in pounds, with driver and the fuel load

2, Torque in lb-ft, rated SAE net (or DIN if you're in Australia)

Result is 0 to 60 mph (97 km/h for those afflicted with un-US Constitutional metrics)

Eg. My 1984 Falcon has 350 Nm at 2800 rpm, weight of 1435 kg without passengers, 1635 kg all up with me and a my beloved. Speaking good ol' American, convert to good old Imperial units 3605 pounds, times by 2, divided that result by 258 lb-ft, rasied to the power of 3 over 5 ( or 0.6)

Whamo, 7.4 second 0-60 mph. Thats why my old modified clunker wastes most Ricers. Even if the wife isn't with me, I can't break 7 seconds, though.

Check this out with the advertised weights and torque figures of Ricers and factory, SAE net rated Pony cars like Mustangs, Comaros, and Fireturds, and you'll see what cars are up for some street legal light action. Hint: Pre 1972 SAE gross torque and power readings are often optimistic by about 17%. Very few ricers can match sub 7 second 0-60 mph times, unless its an S2000 or 200SX with a Turbo
 
8)

As mentioned above the newer engines benefit from the application of new technology and manufacturing techniques.

The best example I can explain is the stock 2.3L OHC 4 banger found in Mustangs, Pintos, and Capris made about 90hp. The new Mazda made 2.3L coming out in the redesigned Ranger will pull over twice that normally aspirated.

Using new technology and computer designed cylinder heads they can now run a DOHC aluminum head that by using a custom designed combustion chamber can run 10:1 CR without detonation.

If for the sake of argument Ford reintroduced the 200 I6 you would see most definately a brand new cylinder head, probably DOHC and aluminum, and the application of friction reducing and parasitic drag reducing components.

Look at what Ford of Oz to see the potential of modern technology on the I6. They are rivalling the American V8's in power and torque.
 
There is no limit to the amount of performance or horsepower an I6 can lay down!. If an OHV NASCAR V8 can lay almost 2 hp per cube, then an I6 can do 1.3 on the street if you follow wining combinations. It all comes down to cost! If you want to shame some Ricers and V8's you gotta do one of two things:-

1. Use nitrous, a turbo or supercharger

2. If you don't want these, you're gonna have to drag 40 years of ancient intake design kicking and screaming into the 21st century!


I follow the Keep It Simple Stupid ideal, but in order to keep it simple, you gotta have all the facts.There is a skilled and unskilled section to getting the best out of your I6.

Best option (going right to the jugular, and assuming your skilled )The best single mod you can do to any I6 is to remove the integral intake manifold that restricts the cylinder heads gas flow. Most really good intakes swallow just over 10% of total air flow from the head itself. On the I6, it's more like 35%. Most people Stateside are on to this. Clifford and others have tri-power set ups for triple carbs. This is a good start. Even the twin 2 barrel set ups you'll see on this site are a huge leap in the right direction.

Along the "let's remove the integral intake" lines. Before 1970, and the advent of the 2V 170 HP 250 engine, Australians used this approach extensively in speedway situations.They would grind off the intake and weld a plate at the gasket face, in line with the exhast manifold face. They made an independent runner manifold to fit three twin choke sidedraft carbs or throttle bodies on. (10 years ago, Redline, Cain, and others in Australia had patterns avalible to suit this modification). Then they spent mega hours making the head flow well.
Simple, effective, no 2V head or Alloy head.

If removing the intake isn't your bag, the other hot tip is to use mutiple downdraft carbs. My thinking is that with a 200, which is lots shallower in the block than a 250, the best approach is to grab two 3 barrel 46 IDF3 carbs off a 911T Porche and slap them on a modified, gasflowed integral intake. There should be just enough space to fit them under the hood. The other option is to get three Weber 44 to 48 IDA's or IDF's mounted. These are 2-barrel down draft carbs which work real well.



Non-skilled
The economic solution for US integral manifold items is to get a 2V Argentine or Australian head to improve air flow, and then go stark raving mad on carbs, cam and exhast. There is 1.3 horsepower per cube for this, and still maintaining streetability. To do this, you need an after market intake manifold to suit three Italian Weber DCOE 45 OR 48mm carbs, or alternatively, DHLA Dell'Orto 45/48 carbs. Australians use these on worked sixes ranging from little 179 cubers to 277 cube Valaint Hemi Sixes. Motech or Halltech throttle bodies are now able to exceed the performance of even these carbs.

Other Things
The cam and cylinder head is the start, and finish, to performance. The seven bearing post 1965 I6 block, cranks, and rods are quite good, although the cast rods and rod bolts are pretty low-rent for high RPM. Oil windage/spray from the 250 crank limits its maximum RPM to 5400 rpm, and it's cast so it won't like 7000 rpm for long even if you look after all the security items for high rpm use. Argentine/Australian 188 and 221 I6's have steel cranks, and these can cop an absolute hammering without snapping. The little 200's are bullet proof.

A 200 I6 with triple carbs or throttle bodies and a 2V head should hit 265 hp net with a 300 degree cam with 480 thou lift and fully gas flowed head.The limit to performance is the rod:stroke ratio, similar to all I6's

250 sixes are not able to produce proportional increases without work on the cam and porting. As engines get bigger, the ratio between torque and power changes. The air flow of bigger engines needs to be more specialized to cope with this. In Australia, even basic 250 Cross flow sixes with 4 barrel carbs hit 290 horsepower on dynos with cast cranks. With 2V heads well worked and triple throttle bodies, 330 hp at 6000 rpm is possible. The piston speeds are huge on this engine for any given RPM. What was 1.3 hp per cube on a 200 will end up being less than 330 hp for a 250. The con rod ratio to crank stroke ratio is again a week point.
 
gagsta_858":phbvnrsd said:
2 times weight divided by torque and all this is the power of.6

I'm having trouble making this one work.Figure my truck at 4200 lbs or 4500 with me and fuel and 260 ft-lbs of torque. Then:

9000/260 = 34.62

34.62^0.6 = 8.33 I wish. Actual is 11.6

Tried it again for the Mustang 3400 lbs/340 ft-lbs 8)

6800/340 = 20

20^0.6 = 6.03 which seems about right. It seems the equation breaks down for grossly underpowered vehicles.
 
The easiest and cheapest way to stay with the new 4's from 0-60 is lower gear ratio and a stick shift transmission. Most FWD cars do not offer the spread of gear ratios the RWD cars have. The ones that do are very very expansive. Hence you won't run across to many inports with low finally drive. Most of the newer Hi Performance 4's such as the Focus SVT, Honda SI or in the 7"s 0-60. I think.
 
i know this will border on blasphemy on this forum, but there's another 6 out. GM has/will(?) release an all new inline. i read about it in HOT ROD magazine a while back. don't recall any numbers, but they were pretty good. maybe this will get ford around to doing something similar for competition. now that would be great. more interest, more aftermarket hop-up stuff for us.
 
There is a complete write-up on this new GM inline on the Inliner's home page. BTW, Jaguar, Lexus, Volvo & BMW are also good examples of what modern engineering can do for the venerable inline 6.
 
Kinky6":ilpfzzbd said:
Jaguar, Lexus, Volvo & BMW are also good examples of what modern engineering can do for the venerable inline 6.

Actually the Jag XK engine was laid out in 1948 and hasn't changed much over the years. It is a perfect example of what can be done when performance is the primary goal of a design.
 
8)

I was watching a show on Jags last week and they went into quite alot of detail on the Jag I6 which they said established Jags racing hertitage back in the 50's and early 60's

I really like the D types and E types.
 
I heard a mildly hopped up BMW six recently, and it sounded like an old Falcon six! Funny, that.
 
june 2001 HOT ROD mag. article on GMs new six--"4.2 liter (256 ci) vortec 4200-aluminum block & head--dual overhead cams--10:1 compression--270 hp @6000--275 @3600 torque--6300 rpm redline"****now if ford would do something similar, we'd all be drooling. and we'd have a new motor to thrash the 4 bangers with. HOT ROD predicts there will be a healthy aftermarket interest with crate motors coming out. now come on ford, theres a challenge!
 
Ford Have something similar, in the BA 4.0 six they use in Australia. The thing is, its over here, and not over there!
 
I keep hearing all this talk about how Honda's weigh about 1300 lbs and run 12 sec. quarter miles. Mostly coming from teenage boys, and I'm not real sure all of 'em, if you laid a crankshaft and trash can side-by-side, could tell you which was which. :roll:

I've kept my mouth shut, but it all sounds like trash talk to me. Because I always hear about this car or that one who beat a musclecar; but I've never seen any time slips or know who's car got beat; eg PROOF of what they say. Are there some fast imports out there, or is it all BS?
 
i'd say there are a few, but after you smoke them in a real car it is funny to hear all of the excuses they make up, for example, oh i was spinning the tires forever...yea i sure did hear that, im pretty sure it was the car i was riding in that was spinning them
 
Dan_in_WA":2n9zy2xj said:
I keep hearing all this talk about how Honda's weigh about 1300 lbs and run 12 sec. quarter miles. Mostly coming from teenage boys, and I'm not real sure all of 'em, if you laid a crankshaft and trash can side-by-side, could tell you which was which. :roll:

I've kept my mouth shut, but it all sounds like trash talk to me. Because I always hear about this car or that one who beat a musclecar; but I've never seen any time slips or know who's car got beat; eg PROOF of what they say. Are there some fast imports out there, or is it all BS?

Yes, it is ALL BS! Most all import guys are dumb. They don't know what a fast car(American car) is but they see CRAP like "The fast and the furious" and think junk imports are fast. Yes they get beat by every stock Mustang and Camaro in town so they just have to make up stories up about how fast there car is. GRRRRRRR :x I hate import guys! They don't have a clue! I am going to stop talking now before I go on a big rant about rice boys.

Dan
 
RogueS":3k511gis said:
i'd say there are a few, but after you smoke them in a real car it is funny to hear all of the excuses they make up, for example, oh i was spinning the tires forever...yea i sure did hear that, im pretty sure it was the car i was riding in that was spinning them

I see you deal with the same crap I do! :LOL: We smoked the "Fastest" import (turbo Civic) at there hangout two weekends ago in my friends ragged out stock LT1 Camaro. From a dead stop it was like 8-10 cars :LOL: . And from a roll we still pulled a few good cars on him. He was said he spun through third gear! WHATEVER DUDE! We beat him bad FOUR TIMES! The import guys had it on camera! Well this last weekend word made it back to us that the import guys said we got smoked from a roll! We whent back to there hangout and found the guy that said it and made him look stupid. He got real nervous when we asked him about it. He kept saying "that's the word on the street". He knew he was cought in a lie. What an idiot! It is just stuff like this that makes me hate anything that has to do with an import that much more.

Dan

Dan
 
Back
Top