Turbo 240 or 300

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pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #251 by pmuller9 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:15 pm

The only turbocharger orientation that is important is the center section.
It is best if the oil feed is on top and the oil return is facing down.

The double slip collectors DO NOT get welded. The primary pipes simply slide into place and are allowed to contract and expand and move around without having welds to stress and eventually fail.

See half way down the page.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/technolog ... aders.aspx

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #252 by Ramian17 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:59 pm

Crazy so that little piece doesn't get welded to the collector, or the pipe coming up to the collector? The pipes just slip into that little sleeve? Does the oil feed need to be perfectly vertical it is definitely coming in from the top but it is at a little angle maybe 15° to 20°. Which then makes it so the coolant isn't flowing completely level across the turbo. Is all that ok? I was told that for longevity of turbo you want the shaft horizontal to the ground? How exact should that be?Also I am about to order the fuel pump, fuel regulator and the intercooler. Are these all still correct for this set up? Or do I want to max out inter cooler? I could definitely go taller and could go to right round 30 inches total width.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-18689/overview/
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13129/overview/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rev9-V-Mount-T ... gz&vxp=mtr

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #253 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:45 pm

The oil return can be at a small angle. The object is to allow gravity to drain the oil out of the center bearing area.
I'm not sure how important it is to have the turbo shaft parallel with the ground with ceramic bearings that also provide thrust support.

Fuel pump and regulator are good.

Go for the biggest intercooler possible.

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #254 by Ramian17 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:57 pm

Dang it i forgot the side view sorry. But we got it moved to where I think it's going to live!!! You can barely tell from these pictures but we moved it quite a bit. I Ordered the pump and reg and I will check on intercooler size one more time and then hopefully order one of those too.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6ym4z6cfchxt ... 4.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ow503py0z49gf ... 6.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wkfhg8szbgmtl ... 0.jpg?dl=0

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #255 by Ramian17 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:15 am

Got the side view. So can you see how when my hands aren't holding it the turbo isn't level aka in the correct position. Because of the heims it still doesn't hang perfect. It takes a couple pounds up on the compressor side is the easiest way to level it, Or like in the pic you can push up opposite of the flange too. So Should i build the header next to support it? I was also thinking I could build the intake to the compressor side out of aluminium and mount it to the motor on the other side before I build the header? The aluminium mount wouldn't have any heims but all in all would not be very stiff then I was thinking of building the aluminium tubing to the intercooler. The intercooler would be hard mounted to the frame not the motor so the tubing would have to be somewhat flexible but also might almost be stiff enough to support the turbo so it hangs more level. You could even have the exhaust put on and hung cause it would be mounted to the frame with thick pieces of rubber also providing support but still very flexible. Do all of this before I build the header? I'm just not familiar with the double slip joints and how well this header is going to hold the Turbo. Or just go for header lol? Thanks for reading all this you guys and for all your help !!!!!! I couldn't of done it without you. There is just so many unknowns and so many start over/redo moments that I'd like to not mess this header thing up.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5q5mh7iqr01y ... 7.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xyqkjyku83ks ... 4.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/90lmdz9mca706 ... 5.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l9qis0yh51afm ... 2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wyglbhl7xbn37 ... 4.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #256 by pmuller9 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:27 am

Header next.
The way it should work is, the header will hold the turbo upright and level especially with six pipes attached to the collector.
The six primary pipes will approach the collector at different angles so the collector cannot be removed from the pipes or move period even with slip joints.
The hanger with the Heims only has to take the weight of the turbo off the end of the header and nothing else.

To help with flex you use silicone rubber tubing between the aluminum tubing coming from the frame mounted intercooler and the engine mounted turbo.
They come in straight, elbow, reducer and other shapes and sizes.
Example: http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product ... cone-Hose/

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #257 by Ramian17 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Ok so I got the exhaust mandrel bends for the turbo exhaust outlet. Now!!?!??? I think the turbo is where it is going to live and I hope you guys like these angles? Just want to make sure that the bends around the water pump pulley aren't to extreme? They will be in the two inch pipe after the six have consolidated to two. I think they are fine and have plus they kinda have to be. I guess just another question before we start cutting these stainless. Cause if this looks good to go tomorrow we go forward with header!!!!!
What do you think about the bend around the pulley and then there is also a little bend going into the turbo?


pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #259 by pmuller9 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:06 am

If that's where the turbo needs to be to get all the ins and outs to work then go for it.
The 2" tubing bends around the pulley aren't very much and will be OK.

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #260 by Ramian17 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:34 am

Hooray thanks a bunch pmuller we are going for it then!!!!

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #261 by Ramian17 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:51 pm

I don't think I ordered enough bends in the two inch stainless. I will need to order some more of that cheap stuff. I ordered the SS for the flange that will bolt to the head. My two old headers had there own flanges. Should I make one flange aka one header? Or should I go two sperate flanges and then we could probably keep them separate all the way to the turbo flange? We started by making a tool to press the tube into a rectangle to match the turbo flange. When we start cutting these tubes do we want any gap between the pieces when we weld them? Or do we want zero clearance between the pieces?

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #262 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 am

I would make a one piece header flange. If you have two pieces then you would need to have them both bolted to the head to get tube alignment at the other end.

If you mean spacing the tubes apart to get penetration, I would say no.
I would grind an angle on the tube walls at the ends of both tubes and butt them together so you have a "V" to fill in at the weld joint.

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #263 by Ramian17 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:05 pm

One piece... will do. the flange for the head side will be here tomorrow and we are pressing two tubes into rectangles as we speak.

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #264 by Ramian17 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Success... Kinda. So what's the trick? we pressed the end of two tubes into rectangles to match the Turbo flange. But because the flange is so tight in the middle as soon as the tubes go back to round they are in the way of each other. We don't have a way to hold a mandrel bend so that we could press a rectangle into the end of one of those but even if we could it would have to be right at the start of the bend. So our plan was to press about an inch worth of the tube into a rectangle. Then cut out a small wedge right as soon as it clears the turbo flange, so that we could bend it out of the way of the other tube? Just feel like our way is kinda ghetto? Gonna go ask an exhaust shop tomorrow if they can form the ends of mandrels?

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #265 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:10 pm

The tubes transition from a rectangle to an oval then to a round.
The two tubes still have to angle away from each other after the turbo flange but the oval section minimizes the angle.

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #266 by Ramian17 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 pm

Yeah the problem is that it needs to go to a mandrel in a matter of inches. Tomorrow I will mock it up first thing and see if we can make one longer, to keep it an oval for a little bit. I drew a sketch of what I think it will look like what do ya think. The tube on the left might be able to be a couple inches before it needs to turn to miss the water pump but the right tube needs to turn almost immediately to make room for the other tube. Jahahahahaha go times. Also in the pick the right tube going to the front collector will snake up and down and not left and right just couldn't draw it 3D. Hopefully all six tubes going into the collectors will be made the same length and the snaking will hopefully make the 2 inch tubes the same length which hopefully makes this thing screem!!!!!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d4h27jhsvmkp4 ... 1.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #267 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:46 pm

Why does the right tube going to the front collector have to snake up and down?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #268 by Ramian17 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:09 am

To make it longer to match the left tube

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #269 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:19 am

It is more important that the primary tubes are the same length than the two 2" tubes.
The extra bends in the 2" tube will make it flow different than the straighter 2" tube and will also create more heat loss.
It would be best if you just made it without extra bends.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #270 by Ramian17 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:40 am

Alrighty then I was just going with what some one at a turbo shop had told me. he said that the extra bends where ok. He said that you are looking for the same volume between the two headers because of the twin scroll? But if you say straight that will be cheaper and easier so I'll go that route if you say so.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #271 by Ramian17 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:50 am

So I've been reading that thread about the crank sensor and the crank trigger. Is there an easy way to know where to leave out the two teeth? Or it's sounding like I need to build or at least figure out where the sensor is going to go?

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #272 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:27 am

The reason I suggested not doing the wavy pipe is that you are trying to make up for a 13.4" difference in pipe length between the two and that would take some big waves to make that up in such a short distance.

The better way is to have the forward header collector turn back about 30* and the rear header collector turn forward about 30* similar to the Stock EFI exhaust manifolds. The outlets of the two collectors will be closer together.
Then the forward 2" pipe would have a 60* turn to run back to the turbo flange and the rear 2" pipe would have a 120* turn to run back.
The two pipes would run side by side all the way back to the turbo flange and be the same length.

Have the harmonic balancer made with all 60 teeth. Then after you mount the sensor you can grind the two teeth off where you need the missing teeth to be.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #273 by Ramian17 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:17 pm

So I drew this pic you thinking something like this? Cause wouldn't that make the front collector have a greater than 90 and the rear less than 90? Either way I think this might work.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sinutajcgc15k ... 4.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #274 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 pm

Yep, that is what I was trying to say. Good translation!

Ramian17
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #275 by Ramian17 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:05 pm

Nice got a rough cut on the header flange today. Hopefully we can get that design header to fit in the doghouse.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #276 by Ramian17 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:43 pm

Finally made some more progress but it's slow, this stainless steel crap is super tough lol. When I cut it out with the plasma I did a horrible job. I have what, I am calling, rough milled the first three cylinders of the flange. Still have the last three to mill. The first three took me hours!!!! But other than watching a ton this was pretty much my first time using a plasma or a mill lol. I have used them both before, very minimally, but never on anything this heavy or tough. We are still planning on having to smooth it by hand with a die grinder or such, after the milling process. You guys have any better ideas of how to go about this. Also we need a template for the head. We are going to go old school with thin cardboard and a soft mallet. Does any one know where I could get a template for a 1966 Econoline 240 head? Does the head need to be machined in the upper corner of the intake port for the injector spray path? Also I bought an intake/exhaust gasket for a 1991 ford 300 and it doesn't seem to have a notch in the upper corner of the intake port fort the spray path is this the wrong gasket?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3tubqxi32xtd ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ilijqc87g2zwg ... 8.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tqgqpaht4zp4 ... 8.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #277 by pmuller9 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:34 pm

The EFI head doesn't appear to have a notch in the upper corner either.

I prefer to use thin aluminum to make a template. It gives a sharper working edge than cardboard.
A ball peen hammer will cut out the (or at least mark well) the outline of the ports

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #278 by Ramian17 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:21 am

Crazy I guess I'll go with no notch in the head then. I talked to the dampener doctor today he wasn't sure if we should cut the 60 gears in the front of the V belt, because of the tiny amount of movement between the dampener and the crank. Due to the rubber between the two. What do ya think about that? Should I have him grind 60 teeth into the front or make me a custom wheel gear that will bolt onto the front of the crank? If I go with the custom wheel should it still be 60 or go with the three style? You did say this is better than just using the distributor for the crank trigger right lol?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #279 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:20 am

He is correct. The dampener does vibrate back and forth with the different torsional harmonics from the crank.
Have him make a 60 tooth wheel that bolts to the inner hub.

Going with three is not as acurate and you would just use the PIP signal from the distributor instead.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #280 by Ramian17 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:02 am

Awesome thanks pmuller. I'm not sure there is enough room between the balancer and the block. I am assuming that if you are telling me to do that, that they there is lol. If there isn't though can the gear go on the front?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #281 by Ramian17 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:05 am

Never mind just reread.... sorry inner hub. Nothing about the inside of the balancer. Thanks again

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #282 by Ramian17 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:33 am

Got the outer edge of the flange pretty much milled to completion. Only a couple spots right next to bolt holes that need a quarter of an inch or so taken off. Also completed the aluminium template.....well kinda it matches the head perfectly right now. So we still need to take .045 of an inch off around all exhaust ports to allow for the tubing to match the head perfectly. Does anyone have the capability to press one off the mandrel bends into a rectangle, to match the T-4 flange. We have pressed a straight piece into a rectangle. But due to the tightness of everything it would be a lot cleaner and nicer if it went right into a bend out of the turbo instead of, turbo half inch straight piece welded seam mandrel bend. I've talked to one guy that says he can do it but I'm guessing I annoyed him with all my questions, and no actual purchase of his skills.....yet lol. Basically he isn't returning my calls any more. He is a custom header guy in Sacramento. I only need two of these rectangles pressed into the ends of two 90° mandrels to go with my twin scroll flange. I have the bends and am willing to ship them to pretty much anywhere. Or I still need some more 2 inch bends so I could have burns send them right to you. I am willing to pay $$$$$ obviously. Otherwise I'm going ghetto extra seam.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyupekqh9mdu5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nc5ll8k2ntho2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/994op65eq7k2f ... 9.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rweuvyk5pbtz4 ... 7.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v4qyigdc2mkz5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxwquji8fgqoy ... 5.jpg?dl=0

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