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Turbos and. Fords

Moderator: Mod Squad

sdiesel
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Location: NW Oregon,Buxton currently

Turbos and. Fords

Post #1 by sdiesel » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:47 am

It's likely the wrong section to park this in, but I would be a nobody , going completely unnoticed through life if I don't break rules periodically.

May I suggest we commence a list of all turbocharger models that have been successfully used with the Ford six.
Then make it a sticky.

I reviewed some of my very own originated threads, and came across one, where years ago, I suggested we turbocharge a six. It was unheard of at the time.
Now.....
In keeping with my deleterious temperament and a penchant for goading others into doing what it is I myself should be doing, I have yet to turbocharge anything. Not even my motivation.
Due in part because the blossoming of technologies, in part the plethora of different build choices,
In part due to advancing information on parts combinations, in part the above mentioned lack of character;
I hesitate to make a move, as things improve on a pace faster than I can keep up with.
But
A listing of various turbos , their sizes , piping and so on might be very valuable to the game we play here.

Very valuable indeed as more fellows with great skill , motivation, and character, arrive at our board enhancing it as they discover our little corner of the automotive world and the fascinating inline six.
Was I long-winded enough?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

pmuller9
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Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:24 am

The turbo size range for a 300 six can be any where from 49 mm to 66 mm for the compressor inducer diameter.
It depends on the operating rpm power range and the breathing capacity on the induction system which includes the head flow and cam combination.
The turbo listing would have to include the associated engine parameters to prevent being misleading.
Example: We don't want someone thinking a Holset HX40 is OK for a stock 300.

Then you have to look at Wastegates and Blow Off Valves (BOV).

The biggest obstacle is fabricating the exhaust manifold or header system.

Firepower354
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Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #3 by Firepower354 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:53 am

Mostly to mark my spot...

I've been struggling with that complex matrix of turbo selection as well.
Compressor needs to flow a certain amount of air to meet power goal, at a boost level it can survive.
Turbine needs to spin fast enough to build boost in the desired range, but not create excessive restriction or require giant wastegate to bleed off exhaust.

I'm sure I'm oversimple in thinking a 2.5L engine that zings 7000 should want about the same as a 5.0L at 3500?

Holset was mentioned, and I think there have been builds (at least theorized) with HY35, HX35, HX40
Shamelessly stolen...

Image

First off what do the numbers mean, for instance a 56/60/12?

The First number is the Diameter of the Compressor Inducer in Millimeters, in this case it's a 56mm compressor wheel.

The Second number is the Diameter of the Turbine Exducer in Millimeters, in this case it's a 60mm turbine wheel.

The Third number is the exhaust housing size in cm2, I'm not going to go into this, but generally speaking, bigger equates to laggier down low, but more power up top.


There can also be Letters at the end like 'W', that gives us more information about the Turbine housing.

'W' Stands for wastegated.
'D' Stands for Devided.
With that newfound information, lets get started.

WH1C (56/60/12WD)
The WH1C is found on 94 and some 95 Cummins, it is basically identical to the HX35 except it has a V-Band Compressor housing.

The Turbine housing is a 12CM housing, is divided and has an internal wastegate.

HX35 - 8 blade (56/60/12WD)
The 8-blade HX35 is found on 95-98 12 Valve Cummins. You can normally tell them apart because the wastegate canister is mounted on the turbine housing, where as the 7-blade's wastegate canisters mounts on the compressor housing.

The Compressor is a 8 Blade 56/82 wheel. Due to the larger exducer, this wheel is not interchangeable with the 7-blade design.

The Turbine is a 12 Blade 60/70 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the older 'straight blade' design, they spool faster but don't flow as well.

The Turbine housing is a 12CM housing, is divided and has an internal wastegate.



HX35 - 7 blade (56/60/12WD)
The 7-blade HX35 is found on 98.5-02 24 Valve Cummins. You can normally tell them apart because the wastegate canister is mounted on the compressor housing, where as the 8-blade's wastegate canisters mounts on the turbine housing.

The Compressor is a 7 Blade 56/76.5 wheel. Due to the smaller exducer, this wheel is not interchangeable with the 8-blade design.

The Turbine is a 12 Blade 60/70 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the older 'straight blade' design, they spool faster but don't flow as well.

The Turbine housing is a 12CM housing, is divided and has an internal wastegate.



HY35 (54/58/9W)
The HY35 is found on '00-02 24 Valve Cummins with an Automatic Transmission.

The Compressor is a 7 Blade 54/76.5 wheel

The Turbine is a 12 blade 58/65.5 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the newer 'curved blade' design, they flow better, but don't spool quite as fast.

The Turbine housing is a 9CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate.


HE341 (56/58/9W)
The HE341 is found on '03-04 24 Valve Cummins.

Most HE341 Compressors are a 7 Blade 56/76.5 wheel. Very few have the smaller HY35 54/76.5 wheel.

The Turbine is a 12 blade 58/65.5 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the newer 'curved blade' design, they flow better, but don't spool quite as fast.

The Turbine housing is a 9CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate.



HE351 (60/58/9W)
The HE351 is found on 04.5-07 5.9L 24 Valve Cummins.

The Compressor is a 7 Blade 60/84.5 wheel

The Turbine is a 12 blade 58/65.5 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the newer 'curved blade' design, they flow better, but don't spool quite as fast.

The Turbine housing is a 9CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate.


Holset HX40 Vs HX40 Super:

HX40 Super Has Billet Wheel (60mm x 86mm)
HX40 7 blade has Cast Wheel, (Same Measurements and Profile) (60mm x 86mm)
HX40 Super Has 10 Blade 64mm x 76mm Turbine
HX40 7 blade Regular Has 12 Blade HX40 64mm x 76mm Turbine

The Turbine housing is a 16CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate. LOTS of T3/4 housing options.



9cm^2 - .48 A/R (HY35)
12cm^2 - .63 A/R (HX35)
16cm^2 - .83 A/R
18cm^2 - 1.00 A/R
22cm^2 - 1.15 A/R
Last edited by Firepower354 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

BigBlue94
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Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #4 by BigBlue94 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:31 pm

I have been told the Borg Warner T179079 off of International Navistar T466 diesel sixes will work, but would be on the large side. These can be found on school buses, reefer trucks, and armored trucks in junkyards for cheap, under $100. They are also easily pulled, as the hang off the side of the engine. Pulling a turbo off a powerstroke is nearly impossible without pulling the cab or engine.

Otherwise, I am turbo-stupid. I will be keeping tabs on this thread though, as I want to learn.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

pmuller9
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Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:54 pm

Firepower354 wrote:I'm sure I'm oversimple in thinking a 2.5L engine that zings 7000 should want about the same as a 5.0L at 3500?

It would be true if the Volumetric Efficiency (% of cylinder fill) is the same for the 2.5l engine at 7000 rpm as it is for the 5.0l engine at 3500 rpm.

The stock 300 six has a peak VE between 1800 and 2000 rpm and falls off from that point.
You can complement the 1000 to 3500 stock power band by using a 49 to 52 mm turbo or you can push the peak power by using a slightly larger 54 mm turbo.
If you raise the power band with a larger cam which moves the peak VE up in rpm then you can look at the 56 and 57 mm turbos.
Using a ported big valve head with a much larger cam will allow the 60+ mm turbos.

Here is the best calculator and tool for turbocharging.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

The 300 six produces very wide power bands and if you want to take advantage of that fact a turbocharger with a wide operating range or wide compressor map should be used.
The Borg Warner and Holset turbos fit that criteria. Garrett turbos are close and offshore turbos brands are an unknown.
Racing brand turbos are used on more narrow power band engines.

Turbos designed to operate on diesel engines which have low rpm operating ranges like the Holset have smaller turbines to produce high boost at low rpm.
The 300 six will work fine with the smaller turbine housings if you are trying to produce boost at low rpm but will be a restriction for higher rpm power applications.

Holset uses the cross-sectional area of the inlet to the turbine which is 90* from the rotating center as the indicator for turbine response.
Examples: 9cm2, 12cm2 (Most times the 2 is left off with the understanding that it is cm squared)
Most other manufactures use A/R which is the ratio of the cross-sectional area to the radius from the centerline to the center of the cross-sectional area.
Examples: A/R = .63, .84

Read pages 6 thru 12 in the following Garrett catalog for a good start to understanding turbocharging.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddqnkqmf0yjrp ... .pdf?raw=1
Garrett also has a good tech section. see the Basic, Advanced and Expert sections.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/turbochar ... rbo-works/

Firepower354. Thank you for your post.

Firepower354
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Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #6 by Firepower354 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:03 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Firepower354 wrote:I'm sure I'm oversimple in thinking a 2.5L engine that zings 7000 should want about the same as a 5.0L at 3500?

It would be true if the Volumetric Efficiency (% of cylinder fill) is the same for the 2.5l engine at 7000 rpm as it is for the 5.0l engine at 3500 rpm.

The stock 300 six has a peak VE between 1800 and 2000 rpm and falls off from that point.
You can complement the 1000 to 3500 stock power band by using a 49 to 52 mm turbo or you can push the peak power by using a slightly larger 54 mm turbo.
If you raise the power band with a larger cam which moves the peak VE up in rpm then you can look at the 56 and 57 mm turbos.
Using a ported big valve head with a much larger cam will allow the 60+ mm turbos.

Here is the best calculator and tool for turbocharging.


Firepower354. Thank you for your post.




I checked closer and this lil rascal is 46mm, likely not enough even for my typical 750-2500 RPM driving.

I added the HX40 info that I could find. Pretty big unit. Mostly used on the 7L/ISC/6CT Cummins and the hotter 6L marine only, closer to the DT466 mentioned by BB94.

Thanks for the BW link. I need to see what the real nice one I got with my 8.1L PSI/Kohler gen engine. Natural gas at 1800 RPM, probably not far from what a tougher 300 build, speculating. 54/81/60 aboot like an HX35
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

Firepower354
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Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #7 by Firepower354 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:56 pm

It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

Firepower354
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Re: Turbos and. Fords

Post #8 by Firepower354 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:05 pm

Conversions:

To make each 100 hp

Different sources use different figures. The four below are most common, and are expressing the same amount of air, essentially.
150 cfm
12.105 lb/min
.0708 m3/sec
.0917 kg/sec
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

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