EFI for the Aluminum Head

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For those who own, or plan to purchase an aluminum head, which would you be most likely to purchase?

Naturally aspirated - 2V/4V Carb & Intake (non-EFI)
24
20%
Naturally aspirated - Weber Side Draft Carbs (non-EFI)
5
4%
Naturally aspirated - Single TB on our 2V/4V Intake
15
13%
Naturally aspirated - Single TB on Plenum Chamber
15
13%
Naturally aspirated - Multiple ITB's
9
8%
Naturally aspirated - Multiple DCOE TB's
3
3%
Boosted (turbo or S/C) - 2V/4V Carb & Intake (non-EFI)
4
3%
Boosted (turbo or S/C) - Single TB w/ Plenum
21
18%
Boosted (turbo or S/C) - Multiple ITB's w/ Plenum
9
8%
Boosted (turbo or S/C) - Multiple DCOE TB's w/ Plenum
5
4%
Other (such as homemade, triple SU, etc)
8
7%
 
Total votes: 118
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AzCoupe
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EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #1 by AzCoupe » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:34 am

As you all know, we have been planning to develop some sort of EFI kit for the aluminum head for quite some time, so I finally decided to get the ball rolling. Since we've worked with Extrudabody in the past, we decided to hire their services and see what we could come up with. To date they have spent over 100 hours designing and modifing the various parts to our specifications. Needless to say, I'm very pleased with the results.

By producing a billet (or cast) manifold, a handful of adaptors, and a cast plenum chamber, we will be able to offer a wide variety of induction options. Naturally aspirated or boosted, carbs or injection, we've got it covered.

The design of the intake allows us to use Extrudabody ITB's, any Weber style throttle body, or triple Side Draft Webers (DCOE). We also designed an adaptor plate so that the plenum chamber can be bolted directly to the intake, which allows us to use a single throttle body, mounted to the plenum inlet with a flange adaptor (such as a 5.0 TB).

However with such a wide variety, we'd like to know which induction system you would be most likely to purchase (or upgrade to)? Our existing 2V/4V intake, or one of the new kits listed below. See Poll above....

1) Naturally aspirated - Weber Side Sraft Carbs
2) Naturally aspirated - Single TB
3) Naturally aspirated - Multiple ITB's
4) Naturally aspirated - Multiple Weber style TB's
5) Boosted (turbo or S/C) - Single TB
6) Boosted (turbo or S/C) - Multiple ITB's
7) Boosted (turbo or S/C) - Multiple Weber style TB's

Just to give you an idea of where were headed, here's a few of the CAD renderings and a simulated flow test. Please don't ask for any specifications or flow numbers, as we won't release them until we actually produce the parts and test them on a flow bench and dyno. We don't have any pricing established either, so please don't ask.... :wink:

Cast Alloy Plenum Chamber mounted directly to the intake. We still need to design an adaptor plate (or flange) to fit on the inlet, so a single throttle body can be mounted. Note: the plenum can be rotated, with the inlet mounted fore or aft.
Image

Standard intake with ITB's and air horns.
Image

Standard intake with ITB's and plenum chamber.
Image

Simulated flow test
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Last edited by AzCoupe on Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 by 69Falcon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:07 am

While I love the look of multiple throttle bodies, I think a direct mount plenum with a single tb would be fairly easy to setup, wouldn't cause shock-tower interference issues, and would still take advantage of the head's capabilities. So that's what I voted for.

But sitting here typing this, I guess my only concern would be packaging, as mounting the plenum with the tb facing towards the radiator, would we run into clearance issues with accessories on that side of the engine bay(alternator, a/c)? On the other hand, if you flipped it around so the tb was near the firewall, you could take advantage of the air flow at the base of the windshield ala cowl induction. But again, packaging an air filter might be troublesome. Either way, if there are packaging issues, than using the existing 2v/4v intake would make more sense. (Plus there wouldn't need to be any development since the intake already exists and you know it's flow characteristics.)

I guess my only real concern isn't so much the hardware, but getting the fuel injection setup properly: controller, maps, etc. to minimize tuning time. (Now if you ever offered a crate motor with the efi kit all pre-programmed and optimized, I'd be signing on the dotted line in a heatbeat!)
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Post #3 by Asa » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:20 pm

now, the single TB, that's a single throttle body, with MPFI, or is it a single TBI system?
because, while i'd like to get the six independent throttle bodies, i'd go for the cheapest possible MPFI setup, which would probably be a single TB with six injectors


this is really cool stuff Mike
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Post #4 by AZstang66 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:03 pm

Just curious... what software are you using for the simulations? Solidworks? ProEngineer? Ansys?

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Post #5 by AzCoupe » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:56 pm

Asa wrote:now, the single TB, that's a single throttle body, with MPFI, or is it a single TBI system?
The single throttle body would be mounted on the plenum, which is bolted directly to the intake, with six injectors installed in the cylinder head intake runners. Therefore it would be a MPFI system.

AZstang66 wrote:Just curious... what software are you using for the simulations? Solidworks? ProEngineer? Ansys?
I have no idea what program they are using??
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Post #6 by 350kmileford » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:39 am

Great, more epic parts that I can't afford!

Any chance there's there's a slim possibility we can get a rough estimate on a semi-ballpark timeline? . .

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #7 by AzCoupe » Mon May 25, 2009 3:02 am

I was talking to my pattern maker last week and we came up with another idea. Rather than making a manifold to support six IDA's (individual throttle bodies) or triple Weber DCOE side draft throttle bodies, why not make the manifold into a 6V throttle body? This has several advantages over separate throttle bodies.

No complicated linkage to fabricate.
No need to worry about synchronizing the butterflies.
Intake runners would be a straight shot, rather than angled (to match a Weber footprint).
Could be made to support a variety of air filters, cones, or a plenum chamber.
Could be machined without the shaft/butterflies, then used with a plenum and single TB.
It would be very compact and would fit just about any application, possibly even in an Econoline.
And the big one; no need to purchase 6 IDA's or triple DCOE TB's, greatly reducing the end cost.

The only drawback that I can think of, is that it wouldn't support triple Weber carbs. However, based on the replies above (only one vote for triple Weber's), there isn't a big demand for this application anyway.

The only trick is finding a machine shop capable of drilling/machining a long hole for the shaft/bushings. Not sure if we would install injector pads, or just put the injectors in the cylinder head. However if we supply pads, it could be installed on an OZ250-2V head (with minor modifications).
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #8 by Lazy JW » Mon May 25, 2009 11:45 am

AzCoupe wrote:....

The only trick is finding a machine shop capable of drilling/machining a long hole for the shaft/bushings.....


Anyone who can drill rifle barrels can do that.
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #9 by rocklord » Mon May 25, 2009 11:45 am

Mike,
I believe it would be a good idea to place injector pads on the 6V throttle body, similar to what you did on the 4bbl intake.
As you stated, this could be used by someone with a 250 2V head, which would give you a larger base of potential buyers.

Any other opinions on this?
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #10 by Anlushac11 » Mon May 25, 2009 4:12 pm

I agree wholeheartedly, make it cover both heads for expanded market coverage and penetration.
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #11 by shmoozo » Mon May 25, 2009 8:57 pm

AzCoupe wrote:... Could be machined without the shaft/butterflies, then used with a plenum and single TB. ...


I'm sitting here wondering how much of a benefit there really is to a set up that uses 6 butterflies in the runners as opposed to one that has a a plenum and single TB. It seems to me that the cost would be lower with the single throttle body set up. For anybody not looking for a full tilt, naturally aspirated, racing engine I suspect the single throttle body version would be just fine, and for anybody running a turbo the need for a plenum actually seems to make the single throttle body version the rational choice.

I mean, yeah, an individual runner system looks cool, but how much more power would it make in an engine using a street cam and mufflers? Enough to justify the added expense for most serious customers?

Does anybody have any thoughts on this?
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #12 by Anlushac11 » Mon May 25, 2009 9:32 pm

This is a Nissan RB26DET. Its a DOHC inline six.

The intake side has the throttle body on the inlet and the tubes to the head just serve as velocity stacks. The injectors and fuel rails can be seen.

Grrr...cant even link to a image too large.
http://www.topsecretjpn.com/products/rb26complete.jpg
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #13 by wallaka » Tue May 26, 2009 6:04 pm

The plenum chamber is economical, easy to produce, and can be fitted into tight spaces as well. It loses tunability, throttle response and ultimate horsepower potential to ITBs, but can produce 95% of the power for 1/3 of the cost probably...seems to be the best compromise for N/A. If boosted, the disadvantages of the plenum design are minimized.
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #14 by AzCoupe » Wed May 27, 2009 3:55 am

I agree. Forget the multiple TBI (or butterflies) and go with a simple manifold, plenum chamber, and a single TB. This would be effective and cheap for those wanting to go with EFI, boosted or N/A.

For those wanting to go with carbs, one of my aluminum head customers is designing a twin 2V intake, which they plan to cast. Once they are done, they have offered to sell me the match plate, or to make up a few extra manifolds and sell them to me.

Therefore I'll probably make the intake from billet (with injector pads), then use the plenum chamber Extrudabody already makes, or design my own.

The manifold below was designed for triple Webers, with angled intake runners. All I need to do is to modify it for straight runners, which also lets me reduce the width. Pretty simple..... :wink:

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #15 by russk » Thu May 28, 2009 6:08 pm

Guys:

Mine is a "future interest" for the 240/300 head and manifolding in the works that I assume will take many design queues from the 144/200/250 products being discussed here.

It's hard to argue with the most simple approach of a 6-runner manifold (with injector pads), and a plenum that supports an appropriately sized mono throttle body. This would have to be the most inexpensive option (since it has the fewest components) and would work well for all but "maximum effort" NA and supercharged applications.

That being said, I don't think I would discount the idea of supporting an manifold variant that does include the necessary throttle shaft bosses; the long throttle shaft, seals and linkage; six individual butterflys; and any other mounting pads (for items like the throttle position sensor, throttle linkage supports, and such). I can't imagine there would be any significant cost to design and cast the manifold component of your proposed EFI system with the necessary pads and bosses in place (but not part of the standard finish machining). I'm sure those customers interested in the 6V option would certainly pay the appropriate upcharge for the required machining and additional throttle related pieces, and for a choice of air horns / velocity stacks in various lengths.

Customers wanting the mono throttle body version could probably expect fairly rapid order response since the (standard machined) components could be shipped from inventory. Customers wanting the 6V option would incur the additional lead time to cover the required additional machining, assembly, and QA operations.

So far as I can tell, all the design options and trade-offs that have accompanied the small six aluminum head and manifolding have been well considered and thought out, given the realities of the targetted market. It will be interesting to see how this EFI system plays out but I suspect it will bode well for the 240/300 big six down the line.

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #16 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:26 am

ill buy one the second it comes out i was going to drill into the head to mount the injectors and make a plenum but this makes it so much better
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #17 by waldo786 » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:34 pm

I like the idea of MPFI and a single throttle body. That's exactly the setup I want to have for my car and the research and commitment you guys have for this project is awesome. I'd be interested in any sort of time table as to how long development might take, because I'll start saving I'd really like one of these.

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #18 by mavereq » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:50 pm

i'd prefer the single tb plenum that bolts to the existing 4v manifold

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #19 by 350kmileford » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:27 am

Any update on this teaser info?

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #20 by tcs64i6 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:38 pm

I'm tearing back into the mustang again, and plan to go MPFI and boost. Will most DEFINITELY purchase one when available.

The single throttle body and plenum would be perfect, and save me a ton of headache trying to fab it up. It would be a very similar setup as my 400hp civic. Easy setup and a lot more power. :)

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #21 by ray6966 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:43 pm

any updates on the EFI? I love the idea..

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #22 by gdlken ford » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:45 am

I will vote to what ever system will work for my 1996 EFI Ford F150.
And I will definetly support the dedicated work that goes into this,community ,quality and well thought products!
Without the innovation from the fellows here, guys like me wouldn't get the go-fast goodies for the motor we all have come together on.

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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #23 by AzCoupe » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:00 am

Sorry, no updates. Unfortunately this darn'd economy has severely limited funds for reseach and development of new products. We're chipping away at it little by little and are close to getting the manifolds done, but we still need to make the plenum chamber. Haven't decided if we wll cast them up, or just fabricate a few.
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Re: EFI for the Aluminum Head

Post #24 by 69Falcon » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:19 pm

Mike, FAST has come out with a new product EZ EFIthat supposedly once you enter in base info, will learn while you drive. My opinion is that a lot of folks either aren't interested or don't have the time to learn how to program an efi system. (I know I'm at least speaking for myself.) Now granted their system is designed around replacing a 4bbl carb with their throttle body, but perhaps the computer technology they have could be applied to your setup. Food for thought.
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