What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

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clintonvillian
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What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #1 by clintonvillian » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:03 pm

What are the differences in computers, sensors etc. I am assuming about all the wiring harness and sensors are the same. Did the newer models go to the newer ecm? I am assuming all years use a MAF sensor?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:40 pm

Depends on the apt but say for a 300 OBDI 88 until early 95 then about 95 1/2 Mass Air and OBDII
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #3 by clintonvillian » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:32 pm

So the earlier models dont have MAF??? really? All of the early mustangs and stuff have them............

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:25 pm

Yeah the trucks lagged behind the cars rollout of MAF.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #5 by 80broncoman » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:38 pm

clintonvillian wrote:So the earlier models dont have MAF??? really? All of the early mustangs and stuff have them............


Mustangs in Calif got mass air in 1988 and in 50 states in 1989.

all 86,87 and 49 state 5.0L Mustangs in 1988 had speed density.
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When it come to engines If its .001 loose nobody knows, But if its .001 too tight EVERYBODY KNOWS!!
80 bronco FUV (farm utility vehicle)300 T-18 3.50s EFI head, offy C dual plenum, 500 edel carb, 1.7 roller rockers, Crane 260 cam EFI Exh

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #6 by MechRick » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:56 pm

All were MAP sensor and batch fired injectors until '95. Then as a part of the OBDII rollout, they got MAF and sequential injection. Those trucks (even the sixes) got cam position sensors and crank triggers too. The sequential-injected 4.9L and 5.8L were only around for a couple years making them rare.

The '95-up engine harnesses are significantly changed from the earlier speed density harnesses. They incorporate the underhood fusebox.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #7 by StrangeRanger » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:04 am

MechRick wrote:...Those trucks (even the sixes) got cam position sensors and crank triggers too...


The '96 300 does not have a cam sensor or crank trigger. It uses the PIP sensor in the distributor for firing order rather than sensing cam position directly. The sensor assembly on the front of the engine is a misfire sensor not a crank trigger.
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
1982 Tiga Formula Ford (SCCA racecar)
2013 Hyundai Elantra Coupe (daily driver)

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #8 by MechRick » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:33 pm

I guess I oversimplified my answer....

The differences between the later/earlier EFI systems is in the distributor ('92-up began remote mount TFI; the part number doesn't change through 1996, but Ford starts referencing the distributor connector as CMP after '95 to account for the need to identify #1 cylinder for SEFI), and the addition of a crank trigger on the harmonic balancer (sixes got 3 teeth, eights got 4). It's purpose was to facilitate the misfire monitor for obdII. PIP and CMP both come from the distributor though. Later systems ('97-up) used high data rate EDIS with a 36-1 wheel on the balancer.

There. Should have done it that way the first time but I got lazy...
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #9 by clintonvillian » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:12 pm

So is there any benefit to get the stuff off of the later models?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #10 by MechRick » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:22 pm

Not really, unless you are playing around with cams and need mass air, or are trying to squeeze out the very best fuel economy with SEFI. In the former situation you would run out of injector almost immediately...
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #11 by clintonvillian » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:46 pm

What type of improvement would you see using the newer system on fuel economy.......are we talking like full mpg's or more like decimals..........I would like to stick with as many "stock" components as I can. If SEFI can be controlled with the stock configurations off of the later models wouldn't that be an easier route than having to mount a triggerwheel and sensor? Swapping out would allow me a good MAF sensor to help with boost control. (MS uses a MAP sensor)

BTW this thing is going to be BUILT, custom cam, cnc ported head, valves, the whole nine yards.

I have to upgrade my system to something, I had originally planned for a MS system. I have a lot of guys telling me to go with a mustang cpu and a card, and then get tuning software for it..........

Which leads me to another question, what software is used with MS systems?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #12 by MechRick » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:12 pm

clintonvillian wrote:BTW this thing is going to be BUILT, custom cam, cnc ported head, valves, the whole nine yards.


The stock SEFI would be outgrown at this point.

Much more than ~200 HP is going to require aftermarket injection.

Megasquirt would be a good option. My next EFI project will probably be MS3. There is a semi-sequential mode in which the injectors are activated once on the intake stroke and once on the back side of the intake valve at the top of the compression stroke (no cam sensor required). Or add a cam sensor for full SEFI with table correction via wideband O2. Much more sophisticated than the stock SEFI, as long as you tune it properly.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #13 by MechRick » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:49 pm

My '96 with 3.08 gears got 18. My '94 speed density xcab with 3.55's is getting 17.

Megasquirt software comes in two flavors. Megatune (no longer supported) and Tuner studio. Both are freely distributable, but Tuner Studio has advanced functions for a small fee. Megalog viewer, the companion to Tuner Studio, is a great tuning/diagnostic tool for viewing datalogs in high resolution.

www.tunerstudio.com
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #14 by clintonvillian » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:08 pm

So if that's the case then I for sure should plan on mounting and using a 36-1 trigger wheel on the crank?

The cam sensor will run off of the tfi distributor? Is that correct, or do I have to adapt something?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #15 by MechRick » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:10 pm

You would have to adapt something. The EEC uses a narrow window on the distributor hall effect to call out #1 cylinder. I'm not sure Megasquirt is capable (software-wise) to decode it.

Most guys use EDIS and a cam sensor fangle from a 5.0L Explorer or something similar.

<edit>
It appears MS3 might actually support Ford signature PIP. It warrants further investigation.

http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition-settings.html
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #16 by clintonvillian » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:23 pm

It will recognize the tfi system.......... I just don't know if it is accurate enough to control the SEFI

What is PIP?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #17 by MechRick » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:07 am

Profile Ignition Pickup. Square wave coming out of the distributor hall effect.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #18 by clintonvillian » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Ignore....

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #19 by motzingg » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:30 am

I like ms2 version 3+ but I have heard a lot of folks complaining about ms3 and ms3pro being buggy and poorly supported. A friend of mine has sent his module back to them 3 times in the last year trying to get it working, they sent him the wrong schematic twice and now it looks like he fried it because they told him to put the wrong resistor in the wrong place. The ms2 daughter card arrangement is kind of a kludge in and of itself, I think the more functionality they add the more the inherent weakness in the coding/ firmware archetecture is starting to show up.

Blah blah nerd speak bottom line most of the people I've talked to who build motors and are way smarter than me at this efi stuff have said ms2 is good but the extra headaches and BS associated with ms3 isn't worth marginal gains from sequential fire. Especially if fuel economy and street ability are not important.

IMO, the ms was designed for SBC it is easiest to work with if you let the computer think it is still hooked up to an SBC. Chev sensors from the junkyard and high-z injectors make your life much easier. Hooking up to a 300-400 inch motor with all chev electronics is almost plug and play, trying to make the oem ford work is kind of intimidating especially for a first attempt.

At last to start with it is real easy to set up distributor ignition on ms2. Tfi requires minor rework, a couple jumpers and resistors. It looks like edis is possible with the stock tfi trigger wheel but it is another level of complexity, probably best to stick with conventional dist until you learn the ropes. For my money a computer curved dist. gives 95% of the benefit with 20% of th effort

The cool thing about tfi that Rick is alluding to but I didn't see him say specifically, the trigger wheel has one narrow prong. The oem computer doesn't look like it uses it but an aftermarket computer could use it to know which cylinder is at TDC for an edis setup without needing a crankshaft sensor like a lot of the aftermarket systems use. The obd2 computer might use it I didn't know it was sequential fire...

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #20 by clintonvillian » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:37 am

Does Ms2 have the smart/learn feature as Ms3?

That was my biggest draw to Ms3 is the fact that it is capable of creating its own fuel tables after you setup the initial ones.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:12 am

clintonvillian wrote:Does Ms2 have the smart/learn feature as Ms3?

That was my biggest draw to Ms3 is the fact that it is capable of creating its own fuel tables after you setup the initial ones.


You really don't want self learning with a boosted EFI application if you are eventually going to use the blower.
Both Holley EFI and FAST EFI have refrained from using their self learning ECU for systems handling above 1 BAR.

I recommend using the Holley HP system with port injectors.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #22 by clintonvillian » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:43 pm

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... s/550-605N

That one?

I also noticed they make a TFI harness. might aid in getting it wired. However I have the full donor harness I think I can trim the wires back in it.

I know some people hate wiring, but it is one of the things I actually enjoy..............weird I guess, but I love standing back after a nice clean wire install and checking it out.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #23 by clintonvillian » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:51 pm

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... ts/553-106

That screen would completely eliminate the need for a dash cluster! That would be awesome, I could just blend it into the stock 56 dashboard below my stock cluster, and have my boost, Tach, A/F mixture right there........

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:20 pm

clintonvillian wrote:https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/hp_efi/ecu_and_harness_kits/parts/550-605N

That one?

I also noticed they make a TFI harness. might aid in getting it wired. However I have the full donor harness I think I can trim the wires back in it.

I know some people hate wiring, but it is one of the things I actually enjoy..............weird I guess, but I love standing back after a nice clean wire install and checking it out.


Yep that's the one.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:34 pm

clintonvillian wrote:https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/gauges_and_displays/parts/553-106

That screen would completely eliminate the need for a dash cluster! That would be awesome, I could just blend it into the stock 56 dashboard below my stock cluster, and have my boost, Tach, A/F mixture right there........


Now you are getting the picture.
I love working with systems where you can integrate other features by simply plug and play.

I just finished adding a Racepak smartwire to a car that already had the racepak V300 SD datalogger.
Just 1 simple data line coming from the switch panel (No one wire per switch bundle) and I can program any output to respond to any switch combination along with any other condition from any channel that is being logged. You can "logic" up to ten input conditions per output.
Soooo cool!

Anyway look through this discussion for ignition options.
viewtopic.php?p=558490#p558490

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #26 by clintonvillian » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:13 pm

you listed three options, does that mean it is not tfi compatible?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:10 am

clintonvillian wrote:you listed three options, does that mean it is not tfi compatible?


It should be able to work with the TFI PIP and SPOUT signals just fine but you are looking to upgrade the power output.

The object of those 3 options was to go distributorless and eliminate distributor rotor phasing problems by going to single coil per spark plug.

The distributor would only be used to drive the oil pump and supply a cam sync signal for sequential injection and ignition.

My suggestion was to go to a wrecking yard and get the coils, mounts, wire harness and 60-2 crank trigger wheel with sensor from a 2005 or later GM LS2 engine.

All the power you need with precise timing control.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #28 by clintonvillian » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:18 am

So you have personal experience with this system?

As far as the chevy parts go......... are there any ford systems out there that will work (Or is the EDIS it?)

I am hoping to be able to configure for tfi. Use as many parts as I can that I have, and keep it simple as possible intitially. Then once it is up and running, add in the boost and better timing control.

Will the ford or chevy wheels (36-1 or 60-2) allow you to use a disc that you cut? Does it matter what size the teeth are just as long as it has the right number of teeth and even gaps?

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #29 by clintonvillian » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:32 am

Also..........Do you guys know anyone who can make custom length fuel rails. I can use tubing and build my own, I would like to find someone who can just do them for me though out of aluminum rail.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #30 by motzingg » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:59 pm

you can buy the raw extrusion here

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/fuelrail.html

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #31 by motzingg » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:04 pm

also there are about a million places out there to buy pre-made reluctor wheels probably cheaper than making your own. the hard part either way is getting the damper machined or a pulley machined to securely attach it.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:42 pm

clintonvillian wrote:
I am hoping to be able to configure for tfi. Use as many parts as I can that I have, and keep it simple as possible intitially. Then once it is up and running, add in the boost and better timing control.



Holley has an adapter cable that plugs directly from the HP box to the TFI Module on the TFI distributor. Part# 558-305
There is a selection in the HP software for Ford TFI.

The gray TFI module controls the ignition coil dwell time so it will be easier to work with.
It just needs the leading edge of the SPOUT signal coming from the HP unit.

The black TFI Module relies on the Computor to control the dwell time and uses the SPOUT signal width as the dwell time.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #33 by pmuller9 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:19 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Also..........Do you guys know anyone who can make custom length fuel rails. I can use tubing and build my own, I would like to find someone who can just do them for me though out of aluminum rail.


You just need 2 different size drills and a 30 degree countersink.
See page 11 of the following instructions.

http://documents.holley.com/199r10510.pdf

You can get custom length extrusions from Ross Machine (see post from motzingg)
They may be willing to do the injector holes for you.

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Re: What are the electronic differences between 88-96 years?

Post #34 by clintonvillian » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:33 pm

I hope you guys are still watching this thread! I noticed something in the previous conversations I missed earlier.

After spending some more time with this looking at parts and such, and reading forum after forum I came to realize that ford already created a "stand alone" or external Cam sensor on the 95-96 models as mentioned above.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0407415089

So with this, it would eliminate the need for modifying the tfi distributor? Am I correct?

All that is needed at this point would be a custom machined billet cap?

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