an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injection

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an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injection

Post #1 by rbohm » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:58 pm

and that is grabbing a mechanical fuel injection pump from something like a mercedes, or other six cylinder injected engine that can be mounted on the side of the engine. the early mercedes gas engines with indirect injection used two pistons and had batch injection, while later ones used sequential injection. the pumps can be had fairly inexpensively, especially for the diesel pumps, though i doubt they can be used in a gasoline application. what do you all think?
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:18 pm

I have thought about mechanical injection too. Ran the old Hilborns on my race car simple systems to tune. :hmmm: Its been a long time back but Ak Miller (his Shop was located in Pico Rivera near the old Ford assembly plant). Ak had installed a mechanical Bosch Fuel Injection system on one or more of his Ford six project cars back in the day. The one I remember about was either a Mustang or Maverick about the early 70's :nod:
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #3 by rbohm » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:54 pm

would you happen to have any links to the installs?
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #4 by Asa » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:55 pm

Really doubt you could use a diesel injection pump for this. They use the diesel fuel for lubrication

Interesting idea, but I'd wonder about tunability.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #5 by rbohm » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:11 pm

dont forget that mercedes also used mechanical fuel injection for their gas engines as well.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #6 by bubba22349 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:42 am

Sorry :bang: no links just going from memory been trying to find that article again for the last couple years.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #7 by J.R. » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:22 am

The '70s-'80s Ford Cologne (Germany) 2.8L V6 engines in Europe wore mechanical F.I. for quite a while before they went to EFI. Tweaked, that engine only put out about 300HP (Naturally Apspirated), due to the factory heads having limited breathing potential. With the Gurney-Weslake heads and modded F.I., IIRC they were above 400 reliable HP, still N.A. Obviously the mechanical injection system was not the power bottleneck; there might be some of those mech. FI systems laying around over there, maybe even available on a Euro-ebay page (?). Just a guess, but I'd bet they'd be less expensive than sourcing a Kugelfischer setup off someone's Mercedes 300! :roll:

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #8 by rbohm » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:06 am

jr, you can pick up a mercedes bosch pump for less than $1000 if you shop around. i also noticed that some tractors, like the massy ferguson and some old ford tractors with gas engines also used similar injection pumps.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #9 by MECH_E » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:46 pm

why the desire to stick with mechanical versus electronic?

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #10 by rbohm » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:40 pm

no real reason other than it gives another option for fuel injection. that and since it is mechanical, it isnt subject to the whims of the electrical system.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #11 by JackFish » Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:32 pm

Diesels need an electric lift pump anyways 'cause you can't let that mechanical one run unprimed or dry.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #12 by rbohm » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:52 am

JackFish wrote:Diesels need an electric lift pump anyways 'cause you can't let that mechanical one run unprimed or dry.


and thats a problem how?
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #13 by JackFish » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:58 am

Would the diesel mechanical pump not still require an electric lift pump to keep it primed even if was using gas?
In which case it would just be kind of redundant?
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #14 by MECH_E » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:30 am

IMHO it'd be easier to source an intake, fuel rail, fuel pump, etc. from a fuel injected 300 and retrofit it to your application. Run megasquirt 1 and have a whole new world of tuning capabilities and probably come out cheaper.

Thats all my opinion though, if one wanted to run mechanical injection I see no reason why they couldnt.

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #15 by rbohm » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:16 am

MECH_E wrote:IMHO it'd be easier to source an intake, fuel rail, fuel pump, etc. from a fuel injected 300 and retrofit it to your application. Run megasquirt 1 and have a whole new world of tuning capabilities and probably come out cheaper.

Thats all my opinion though, if one wanted to run mechanical injection I see no reason why they couldnt.


its kind of hard to run a 300 intake on a 200ci engine. and the megasquirt is nice, even i have suggested running it, but it needs programming, where as the mercedes pump would be closer to needing tuning like a carb instead. no need for a laptop for tuning like the megasquirt does, its much simpler. also as i indicated before, the mercedes system is not subject to the whims of electricity like the megasquirt system is. the only bad fuse that would kill the fuel injection would be the one for the fuel pump if you used an electric pump. same with the electrical connections. you dont need an O2 sensor, map sensor, etc. the other fun thing is that it looks of the proper vintage, where as the megasquirt doesnt.

as i said it is just another alternative fuel injection system for consideration.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #16 by xctasy » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:46 pm

I'll pipe in, since I love the fact that this is a Mega Squirt site, where I've only ever talked EECV here. We are talking pre historic Bosch K Jetronic / CIS now. It was only Ford Europe that stayed with this archaic, space robbing system. Not that it isn't good, it shows the Germans ability to triumph engineering over common sense, but it is old, and it works well. Unless its Bosch K Jetronic CIS-E, the Cold starts aren't always as good as any Ford EEC3, 4, or 5. The injectors are nice an small, though, and they are around in other cars, not just Benzes.

Either one of the two systems the 280E ran is actually a great system. But it was ypu Americans who have perfected EFI, and the later Bosch K jetronic Mechanical Port Injection is retarded by comparison. There were two 280E systems, the first was Bosch D jetronic, which is electronic speed density like an early Toyota 2.8 or Datsun 260Z/280Z/280ZX and the late 70's Jag XJ6/XJ12 XK6 and V12 systems...much more like a proper US port EFI EECIV or Delco P3 Memcal/Calpac system. Then Daimler Benz reverted to the Bosch K jetronic, for the same reason Volkswagen and Citroen did after some or their very advanced early Bosch D jetronic electronic systems.The European D jetronics had no real fall back or limp home mechanism, and they really needed something like an O2 sensor to ensure you never got stranded. These days, the early system looks much better than the later US market versions. The German and Eurpean market AMG modified 280E version of the D jetronic made a very health 210 hp. High 15 second quarter miles, over 137 mph, and brillant high compression fuel economy.

You can tell that it is a heinously complicated system by the fact that it takes a 20 minute video just to explain all the components


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fJAfXYxWk

Yippe Yie Yay Yie Yo!

I won't even talk about a T-bird Super Coupes 3.8 EECIV speed density that makes over 200 hp with stock calibration and cheep as french fries Super Charger, and how much cheaper that should be, with easier to find bits and easy to understand back up.

It's all good, the progress to cheep, reliable fuel injection has been happening for years, and in the US, the Bosch K Jetronic never figured in domestic cars because the US GM and Ford Bosch D and L Jetronic systems excelled. Detroit skipped Bosch K Jetronic/ CIS and went right on to bank fire speed density (SD), and then sequential MAF and sometimes sequential SD. Even Australia went BMW LE II Jetronic in 1982, when

If you can make the intake flow and can find the space, a Bosch K jetronic will give an easy 30 % boost over the stock small Ford 1-bbl carb and 256 degree cam. More with changes. It tops out at over 185 hp with stock M110 Benz parts, so if you mix and match, you can go higher. How about a Supercharged 280 E with well over 300 hp?

Or add a 911 Turbo unit, and get 260 to 300 hp with turbo or a Supercharger. The Bosch K jetronic was also the 205 hp rear drive Ford Capri Tickford 2.8 Injections fuel metering system, and it provided the goods.

On the 1978 to 1983 Fords in Europe, the non turbo Cologne 2.8 injection gained 15 hp over the stock 135 Euro spec 2.8 2-bbl DGAS 38 carb engine if everything else was the same, 160 hp if the exhaust system was upgraded, but the Bosch K jetronic gives about 11.1% hp over the best 2-bbl carb on small Fords.

Bosch K Jetronic systems varied between US and German European Dirty non emissions engines, but they gave a 18.6% power and 8% torque boost over the stock 4-bbl 280 C engine.

The US and Aussie engines Benz engines had much lower compression, and emissions devices, and were designed for 87 unleaded. But a Bosch K JetronIc ex M110 2.8 is able to easily make 185 hp, up from 156 hp. Then there was the earlier 210 hp version, a vertiable scalded cat speedster.

We discussed it back when a certain person decided to rip off his emissions gear on his EEC 4 4.9 Big Six

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 53#p504553

As for the system....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg8dvSj15aY

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123-e- ... ences.html

It has a really big a$$ long runner intake, so did the latter Bosch D Jetronic machines
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #17 by xctasy » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:32 am

The right induction, cam, valves and tuning can take any US 280E up almost 50% on power from about 142 HP to 210 hp. The same applies to the Ford 200 six...despite the differences, a two valve per cylinder engine via ohv can run on 280E AMG logic, and get similar performance. The MB M110 head is very much like the Aussie Crossflow, but its got a valve bank angle that is steep, and it has some very odd valve shapes, restrictive guides in the early versions, and they did a huge amount of flow bench work from 1973 to 1985, and the engine was kept allive for the Steyr Putch G wagon, which used it with later V8 style 9mm guides after the 1983 revison. The twin cam means you can taylor the intake and exhaust events easily, and the chain driven cam system is a masterpiece of simplicity and accuracy.


A little bit more on those early 2.8 liter M110 Twin Cam Benzes, like the W114, W123 or W126, the 280, 280s, 280c, 280ce, 280e, 280se to compare.

I've got dibs on a W114 250 with a with a European high compression D jetronic 280E conversion, with later S class mag wheels with some 225 and 235/45VR17's. I'm looking at it for my daughter, who is a hairdressor, and I figure a little snob value wouldn't gpo amiss for her. Benzes aren't my bag, but with stock 4-bbl, D, and K jetronic double knockers and a well sorted steering and IRS and braking system, you could do a lot worse than the old 1974 Right Hand drive specimen my machinst has been trying to flog off.

I've got access to heaps and heaps of old Mercedes Benzes, they were very popular, and like Huston, some parts of New Zealand are Junk yard Capital of the Benz world for these.

In those engines, there were European and US emissions engines, the Euro carb 4-bbl and Esprinz (injection) did 185 hp or 210 hp, the US varied from 130 to about 145 hp.

They all ran thick guides, but very short intake and exhaust valves, with complicated thick lash caps to allow high lift via 2" free lenght supple double valve springs. The exhaust valves were sodium cooled in two sizes of guide, the early one about 11 mm, the later one 9mm. They have a kind of Lima/I4/Pinto style mechanical lash adjustment and they do drop the odd valve only if trashed, not well oiled and not checked for valve clearance. When a sodium valve drops, it can take the block out because MB's run a fairly thin iron block, and they rev out to 5800 or 6300 rpm. The valve system is very good, but the lash caps and rockers must be very well maintained, or they cause the valve spring rotators to do wacky stuff, and the valves to wear in a manner which ensures they gall in hard driven situations. In those cases, despite the over engineered work the engineers at Damiler Benz did, they ulimately are at risk of dropping a valve, the intakes first, or then the exhausts with spectacular Chernbol like disarangements.

The truly greast thing about the M110 is that plenty of people in the US and the world over a re still working on them, but they tend to use titanium valves and NASCAR rods, and often drop in a set of DCOE 40's.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/per ... hread.html



With upgrades to AMG spec below, the European versions already great out put went from 185hp at 6000rpm to 210 at 6300 rpm, a 13.6% boost
Torque rose from 175.8lb-ft at 4500 to to 184.3lb-ft at 5000 rpm, a 4.8% boost


Later K Jetronic were 185 at 5800 and 177 at 4500 rpm.

The early over-size AMG valves were used on the speed density Bosch D Jetronic 210 hp version. It ran a 270/280 duration cam set with 0.433/0.413 valve lift with 23_72 and 67_28 at lash opening and closing valve timing. They were pretty rare, but the 210 hp version had 45.2mm intake (1.78") and 39.1mm exhaust (1.539") valves, sodium again for the exhaust. Mike at Metric Motors in California, USA, and Dbilas Dynamic in Germany have them.

ImageImageImage
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #18 by MustangSix » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:36 am

rbohm wrote:..... the megasquirt is nice, even i have suggested running it, but it needs programming, where as the mercedes pump would be closer to needing tuning like a carb instead. ......


I don't think you'll find a mechanical system that will bolt on without some tuning. In that case, recalibrating a mechanical system is magnitudes more difficult than keystrokes on a laptop or PC.

There's a steep learning curve on Megasquirt tuning, but the basics aren't to hard to do and there's a very active support forum. Getting an engine running isn't hard; it's resisting the urge to continue tuning once you have it running that's tough. :nono:

Megasquirt has the capability to self-tune once you get some of the initial parameters working. And don't forget that fuel is only part of the equation. Being able to control ignition events over a broad range of conditions is just as important for power and efficiency.

Building one can be daunting for anyone not familiar with soldering, but for something like this, a Microsquirt is a really viable option.
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #19 by xctasy » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:35 pm

The whole Bosch K or D system is very easy to find, calibrate and integrate. Here's an example of the early Benz Bosch system in a Ford.

If you use Jacks idea of 250 2v injector positioning on the iron log head, or Drag200Stangs Bosch D injectors, you can add a W114, 123 or 126 system to a Ford 200.

Its easier to up or downscale the engine tuning to suit the M110 engines Benz Bosch injection system, since the rod ratios, stroke and 142 hp and 150 lb-ft original power and torque figures are already replicated with the Ford Log head. The flow rates of the M110 head are similar to the best modified logs heads via Ak Miller methods, and similar to the Classic Inlines and Aussie X-flow alloy head. Or you could put in MB intake and exhaust valves like in my FAZER engines, and tune it to suit the 210 hp of an AMG W114 engine from 1974-1976.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=68966


This car was posted on a Maverick site, then a Fox site, and one of the guys said that its an Inline 6 that ran Bonneville!



Image


ImageImageImage

rbohm wrote:cool set up. might be fun to find a system from something like a mercedes 280sl to rob and install on one of our sixes.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #20 by 80broncoman » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:44 am

Asa wrote:Really doubt you could use a diesel injection pump for this. They use the diesel fuel for lubrication

Interesting idea, but I'd wonder about tunability.



The Bosch P7100 injection pump used on 1994-1997 Cummins 5.9Ls has a oil feed line and uses engine oil for Lube.
some people call it the million mile pump.

Easy to mod some call these 12V 5.9L engines the SBC of diessels.

This pump is quite easy to tune as well. I tuned the one in my truck. Best part is it a inline pump!!

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #21 by thesameguy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:31 pm

Mercedes and VW stuck with K(E)-Jetronic for *years* - I think largely because they were comfortable with it, but partly because it wasn't drastically inferior to contemporary batch-fired fully-electronic injection. '80s K-Jet vs. '80s L(H)-Jet? Kinda meh once you get over the packaging. There is only one component you *need* to run K-Jet, and that's the metering plate that affixes to the top of the airbox and regulates flow at the injectors. All the other stuff - thermoswitches and air valves, etc. are for emissions or idle compensation or cold/hot enrichment. The thermo-time switch and the warm-up regulator solve enrichment, so with them and the metering plate you'd have a car that runs at least as well as a carb'd car. Since it was in pretty widespread use for over twenty years Bosch CIS ("constant injection system") has a lot of hacks for tuning and you can power double digit or triple digit outputs no problem. It's not a smart system - I mean, it was designed in the '60s! I made pretty good power with my turbocharged 8v Saab using CIS and parts assembled from Volvos and Porsches - but that was back in the day. IMHO, the big issue *today* with CIS is that the newest CIS parts are over twenty years old now and some parts are VERY difficult to find or, best case, you end up buying them from Mercedes or Porsche at very high prices. Keeping a CIS system in good nick in 2014 can be *very* expensive. I long ago converted that Saab to LH (pulsed/batch fired) injection because keeping it running costs nothing except used Mustang fuel injectors every so often. ;)

IMHO, the roadblock to fuel injecting the small six is the bloody intake manifold, and that's a roadblock whether you use constant or pulsed injection. You gotta get those injector bungs installed. After that, whether it's playing with metering plates or plugging values in a table you're going to invest some time. Nice thing about computer-controlled injection is that any decent tuner with a dyno can get you some pretty good tables pretty quickly, whereas metering plates are a bit more of a PITA (though not unlike playing with carb jets!).

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #22 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:36 pm

Hi rbohm, well thanks to Xctasy's researching the picture and article I mentioned from long ago has now been found. Check out his latest posts near the bottom for link to the HAMB for the old article on the Ak Miller Maverick buildup. And also a picture of the installed mechanical Bosh fuel injection system that Ak Miller had on one of his project cars. Enjoy :nod:

Link to Xctasy's article find
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72632
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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #23 by thesameguy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:21 pm

That is super cool to look at! Ford kinda ended up skipping CIS, didn't they? Straight from carbs to electronic injection.

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Re: an interesting idea i was contemplating for fuel injecti

Post #24 by turbo2256b » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:42 pm

I picked up a gas Benz engine pump back in 75 while surching for parts for my 3 banger Saab. Got it cheep. Thoughts were to use it on my 200 6. Then I priced the jets they were like 60 bucks each so gave up on it at the time dont even know what I endedup doing with it.

Currently working on a barn find 84 bERTONE x 1/9 that wasnt running last plated and driven in 02

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