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New carb or new dizzy???

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gimmea250swb
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New carb or new dizzy???

Post #1 by gimmea250swb » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:56 pm

I bought a 65 FB with 200 ci engine. This is my first post here and hope the experts can guide me. In short I’m rebuilding the carb (Holley 1940) and discovered it doesn’t have threads for the SCV. It also has a Load-O-Matic distributor. I understand I have two options: buy a new carb or buy a new distributor.

The car will be a short distance, low speed daily driver.

- what’s your recommendation?

Should I get a Pertronix system?

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wsa111
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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #2 by wsa111 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:44 pm

You need to completely update your ignition system.
I would suggest what i recommended before is go with my recurved DS11 & a MSD-6al ignition box with a MSD Blaster coil.
Questions? Bill
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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chad
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New carb, new dizzy or both...

Post #3 by chad » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:11 pm

too expensive for me Bill?
"New carb or dizzy?"
yes !

"...- what’s your recommendation?..."
Glad U put up the APPLICATION (THE automotive Q 4 every choice) and a lill more detail would help (4 a lill more zeroed in answ - but that may not B important here, 4 U).

Did U get "the Handbook"? Did U read the above tech archive under LOM/SCV? Possibly it mentioned the sm/lrg dizzy hole in the block as well (where it meets the oil pump drive). U R on the '65+ side so can take the DSII dizzy. U seem intent on rebuilding the current carb (I'd geta glass bowl as well - $45). A '68+ carb and the DSII dizzy ('76? +?) sure would make that car more drivable in today's traffic...

Glad ta have U on board...keep us along as U get the vehicle runnin smooth, safe, reliable, and worthy of today's roads...
:beer:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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wsa111
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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #4 by wsa111 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:23 pm

Chad, you are not the buyer.
So let the member make that decision. Don't advise a member to purchase cheap junk.
Let the buyer decide.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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chad
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new carb, new dizzy or both?

Post #5 by chad » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:00 pm

chad wrote:too expensive for me Bill?
"New carb or dizzy?"
yes !
"...- what’s your recommendation?..."
Glad U put up the APPLIC...


I have given none, Bill, can't, don't know the cost.
I have asked a Q tho (as I know the cost of the alternative...
The box alone costs more than my system in its entirety tho).
Sorry if U C something personal, it's ur interpretation...not my intent,
hope U can C that.

"...A '68+ carb and the DSII dizzy ('76? +?) sure would make..."
o0OPPp...there's my recommendation'n "I'm stikin to it" (wid more detail)...
We can all make one, or several. Let's hear a lill more on his specifics if there's interested...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #6 by CZLN6 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:28 pm

Howdy Gimmea:

And welcome to the forum. Before advise and recommends I have a couple more questions. Are you building toward more engine performance? reliability? low maintenance? Mileage? Are you interested in maintaining originality? What are your long terms plans for this car/engine? Budget? How does the engine run now?

FYI- The Holley 1940 is not the original factor carb. The factory carb for your engine would have been an Autolite 1100. When Autolite went out of manufacturing business, Holley created a generic service replacement carb for all the various one, two and four barrel Autolites on various FoMoCo engines. So the Holley 1940 became the factory Service Replacement for all FoMoCo sixes. Unfortunately, one size does not fit all very well.

The fact that your carb does not have a threaded hole to accommodate a SCV, may be an indication that it was retrofitted for a 1968 or 1969 200 that was matched to a '68 and later distributor that had both vacuum and centrifugal advance. The vacuum advance was linked to a ported vacuum source from the carb. Does your carb have a ported vacuum source?

That said, why are you thinking that the carb needs to be rebuilt? What are the symptoms? And are you sure you don't have a '68 and later distributor rather than a LoM?

So, my immediate advice to you is to identify which carb and distributor you have. Getting a match between you carb and distributor will be the first goal. Let us know what you find.

Again, Welcome to The Forum. And keep it coming.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #7 by DoctorC » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:27 pm

I did the electronic ignition upgrade recently, with a Weber carb. I spent about 500 bucks plus my time on the ignition. Plus whatever the Weber kit costs at VI (dont remember).
Bill did the curve, Summit for the MSD box. VI for the carb.

My threads on the debugging experience are here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80088
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80154
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80187
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80387

I chose the Weber carb because of the progressive venturi, which helps the MPGs on a DD.
1967 Cherry Red Mustang
Weber 32/36,
MSD 6AL+MSD Coil,
Duraspark 2 dizzy

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #8 by wsa111 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Its almost 2020, get with the times & at least get an ignition that runs on 12V not 8V.
The HEI for the small six is an oil leaker & also needs to be recurved. It also has two major design defects. One is fixable the other is not.
The newer DUI's have oil starvation to the shaft & bushings. That can be fixed & also neets a major recurve for your build. I have received several for recurving & the shaft was all most seized.
The DS11 has no design problems. Just needs to be recurved for your build.
Need to purchase a modern ignition box like the MSD-6al & at least a MSD Blaster coil. This box can be connected to the DS11 with a MSD-8869 harness. A real plus it can be triggered by you 8V + coil wire.
Plug wires the MSD & Performance Distributor has the best spiral wound wires. NAPA has a less expensive set.
David CZLN six just gave you some choices for carbs.
DoctorC has all the info on a Weber.
Chad also mentioned the glass bowl carbs.
The VI head is the way to go if you have the $$$$$$'s
A later head is great for a direct mounted 2BB carb. Holley & Autolite are your choices.
I like the Holley, cause i tune with a wideband A/F tester.
Image
Image
Image
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #9 by B RON CO » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:21 am

Hi, don't assume you have the original LOM distributor, many "mechanics" changed out original parts and installed later model parts, weather they knew what they were doing or not. The older LOM distributor worked fine, with the correct carb, as good as an old 1950s design could. The LOM uses vacuum only for the advance. It was actually outdated when it was new. The later distributor, from about 1968 on, is the modern points and condenser distributor. The big advantage is mechanical and vacuum advance. With the later distributor, and later (matching) carb, you can get good performance, until you decide to take the next step. There are many of these setups, left stock or upgraded with a pertronix ignition and matching pertronix coil, running good. Personally I look to get the most out of what I have, and then come up with a plan to improve performance to the next step. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

gimmea250swb
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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #10 by gimmea250swb » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:49 am

Thank you all for your help. I'll take a look at all the suggestions and figure out the way to go. In terms of confirming what I have, here are photos of teh carb and the dizzy. If I'm not mistaken, the two springs suggest a load-o-matic, correct? EDIT: I tried to add photos but the error says the board attachment quota has been reached.

I just rebuilt the carb. The accelerator pump had gone bad. When I pulled the carb apart the plunger had a huge gap between it and the walls - I don't think it was pushing anything un acceleration. The symptom was that during acceleration, the engine died. I've got another thread on the rebuild I'll comment on in a moment.

Could you please confirm I've got a load-o-matic?

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #11 by B RON CO » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:45 am

Hi, the LOM vacuum advance is flatter, like a pancake. The later advance is much more 3 dimensional, maybe 3" long. All LOM have a screw on connecting for the advance tube. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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chad
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new carb or new dizzy - yes!

Post #12 by chad » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:57 am

Visual ID:
isn't it abt the lill 'dash pot' type thing - being on a large boss or flange to the rear driver's side of the dizzy?
Lemmie C if I can get some pic:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-60-61-62- ... SwHsRYDpOW

yep, there's a few here. Go dwn to the Galaxy. C the silver vac can(ister) how its connected to the body, non LOM may B w/a slim line. Click thru the Galaxy pic. I think, looking dwn frm above, w/o the cap on - U can see the inside...on the later model there R more screws on the base plate...U can spin those screws'n lift the base plate off - the weights'n springs not on a LOM R there for the advance function (centrifugal force). Look to 'the Handbook' & above 'tech archive' as well...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:07 am

Without a picture we can't confrim or deny that you have a Load O Matic Distribor. For reference though in the first link below you will see a LOD Distribitor for the Ford Falcon small six and in second link is of a later model Duel Advance point type Distributor. Notice the difference in the Rotors and the point plates. Also from reading your other post I agree with you that your carb should be rebuilt and installing a new fuel filter is also a good idea. Something you should also check if the car has sat for a very long time is the condition of your fuel tank it may have dirt and or rust in it that could then clog up your clean rebuilt carb and filter again. Depending on the planed use of the car, your budget, and if you are wanting to keep it all original swaping out the old LOM Distribitor can be a great upgrade for a daily driven car the minimum for decent performance and good economy is the later duel advance Distribitor to that you could also add a Pertronix Ignitor and hotter coil. I agree though that the DuraSpark II upgrade is about the best there is for excellent performance and economy plus the cost is reasonable. If your budget is low you could also look for a compleate used system at your locale wrecking yard. Good luck on your project. :thumbup: :nod:

Load O Matic Distribitor
https://fordsix.com/img/picture.php?/2450

Later Duel Advance Point Distribitor
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79672&p=615856&hilit=Load+o+matic#p615887
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #14 by CZLN6 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:23 pm

Howdy back Gimmea:

How did the carb rebuild go?

On the LoM the two springs are next to each other. On the '68 and later, with both vacuum and centrifugal advance, the springs are under the point plate and on opposite sides.

Once you get your rebuilt carb installed and working to its best, try setting the initial advance with an additional 5 degrees advance for some extra pep and mpg. Be sure to note the setting before you start changing it, for future reference.

Keep it coming.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #15 by StarDiero75 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:34 pm

I got a video and the jet sizes if you choose to put a weber on the car the poor mans way and not buy through VI.

https://youtu.be/yvOCZ3rql7Y

Another way to go, if you want to upgrade the carb is to look for a later model head and have it milled for a 2bbl like this... i can't post pictures for some reason. Check this thread out to see the pictures and what I did to do it if you chose to go that route.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79809

If you want to just keep it going just swap the dizzy. If you want some fun, swap both. The DS11 system is nice. If you want just a simple drop in no mods, find a 68+ dizzy. But the DS11 system will get you better mileage and power, it comes with a little more money. But its money well spent.

Good luck,
Ryan
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200, dual friction diaphram 9" Modern Driveline clutch and billet flywheel all balanced, 1985 SVO WC T5 with front shift, 1966 2.8 Ford 8", Weber 32/26 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #16 by gimmea250swb » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:14 pm

Thank you all again for all of the help! The carb rebuild went well I give myself an A-. No missing parts and everything fit back together :) The only issue I have right now is something is funky with the idle mixture screw. I've posted this in another thread and won't address that here to keep from dueling threads.

On a spearate note, I discovered the file size of my LOM photo was too high. Let's see if this upload works. It doesn't look like the other LOM image in this thread so hopefully somebody can help me out.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #17 by wsa111 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:21 pm

Yes, its a loadamatic. Sorry for the bad news.
Time for a DS11.
https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=80184 This is the best of the best. Bill
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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chad
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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #18 by chad » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:34 pm

wsa111 wrote:Yes, its a loadamatic. Sorry for the bad news.
Time for a DS11.
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=80184 This is the best of the best. Bill

did U wana show the loadamatic in ur link Bill?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #19 by wsa111 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:22 pm

chad wrote:
wsa111 wrote:Yes, its a loadamatic. Sorry for the bad news.
Time for a DS11.
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=80184 This is the best of the best. Bill

did U wana show the loadamatic in ur link Bill?

Chad that is no loadmatic. Its just an old stock photo.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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chad
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New carb or new dizzy: yes

Post #20 by chad » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:05 pm

thanks, Bill
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #21 by bubba22349 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:13 pm

gimmea250swb wrote:Thank you all again for all of the help! The carb rebuild went well I give myself an A-. No missing parts and everything fit back together :) The only issue I have right now is something is funky with the idle mixture screw. I've posted this in another thread and won't address that here to keep from dueling threads.

On a spearate note, I discovered the file size of my LOM photo was too high. Let's see if this upload works. It doesn't look like the other LOM image in this thread so hopefully somebody can help me out.


X2 you have a Load O Matic it matches the first picture above that I posted for you. Tell tale signs are the two advance springs in Plain View as well as the old style Distribitor Rotor / Cap combo. Upgrading the Distribitor to the newer type we'll make a very noticeable difference in your cars drivability. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #22 by CZLN6 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:43 pm

Howdy Gimmea:

That's a start. Now verify that your carb is a SCV Holley 1940. IF it is not you will still have a mismatch.

Keep it coming.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: New carb or new dizzy???

Post #23 by gimmea250swb » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:35 pm

Thank you all again for your help! It looks like a new dizzy is on the way. I appreciate the confirmation.

If you're interested, I've rebuilt my carb and have posted the results here (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80395&p=624030#p624030) I'm still trouble shooting the tuning but I'm getting there and learning along the way. I'm closer than I was yesterday. Unfortunately, I get home late and don't have a lot of time before it gets dark.

Again, thanks!!

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