And it is a good time to check that your new damper is marked right , before removing it. And after if you shift it with keys.
All Small Six mild 200 rebuild - still dialing in - timing questions
- Thread starter timson
- Start date
This relates to all small sixes
HI Tim, I think since you got the timing set from "Schneider" then it's one of the early chain / gear sets (timing is straight up) which will be as good of a stock type timing chain & gear set as you can get. Below in part IV of Echo1955's Ford Mustang 200 six rebuild videos shows cam degreeing, if you need a little refresher on it. Best of luck
These are all of site member echo1955 (Roy's) Video's that I could find.
Edited and updated on 11/17/2017
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part I 1/04/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part II 2/20/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part III Find TDC 5/09/2011
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rel ... bUeLAp6XaI
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part IV Degreeing the Camshaft 5/19/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part V 7/09/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VI 9/19/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VII 7/31/2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM0Puddl2as&feature=plcp
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VIII Roy had this Video almost ready to post it covered much more up to the engine brake in, it's lost for now due to a hard drive failure.
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VIIII The Tri-Carb Install. 12/26/2014
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srUZ8s8sAiE
These are all of site member echo1955 (Roy's) Video's that I could find.
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part I 1/04/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part II 2/20/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part III Find TDC 5/09/2011
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rel ... bUeLAp6XaI
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part IV Degreeing the Camshaft 5/19/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part V 7/09/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VI 9/19/2011
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VII 7/31/2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM0Puddl2as&feature=plcp
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VIII Roy had this Video almost ready to post it covered much more up to the engine brake in, it's lost for now due to a hard drive failure.
1965 Ford Mustang 200 Rebuild Part VIIII The Tri-Carb Install. 12/26/2014
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srUZ8s8sAiE
timson
Well-known member
Thanks again, Bubba. I was following those vids on assembly, but think I may have messed up somewhere, unfortunately. Roy´s vids are great stuff, and I especially enjoy seeing how much fun he had making them!
Speaking of vids, I´ve been watching a few from Thunderhead289, and while he´s not an inline guy, his explanations of timing and tuning are really clear and make sense.
Anyhow, Cheers!
Tim
Speaking of vids, I´ve been watching a few from Thunderhead289, and while he´s not an inline guy, his explanations of timing and tuning are really clear and make sense.
Anyhow, Cheers!
Tim
Thank you Tim yes I have seen a few of his videos too, he's a very smart young guy!
I had some troubles also with this, but it ended up being a carburetor issue.
Bored 200cid, big cam, header, free flowing exhaust, HEI...Weber 32/36 with the synchronized kit.
85 Primary Idle jet, 65 secondary Idle jet... drilled a 1/16th inch hole in both throttle plates...
FINALLY idled correctly per Weber's screw settings.
Before, the primary circuit HAD to be engaged a little. (about 4-5 turns on the speed screw) The idle circuit alone wouldn't run the engine.
Plus it needed about 55-60 degrees of initial advance!
Now she runs like a champ. She just wanted more air.
A Weber 38/38 is sitting on the bench all adjusted waiting in the batters box.
Bored 200cid, big cam, header, free flowing exhaust, HEI...Weber 32/36 with the synchronized kit.
85 Primary Idle jet, 65 secondary Idle jet... drilled a 1/16th inch hole in both throttle plates...
FINALLY idled correctly per Weber's screw settings.
Before, the primary circuit HAD to be engaged a little. (about 4-5 turns on the speed screw) The idle circuit alone wouldn't run the engine.
Plus it needed about 55-60 degrees of initial advance!
Now she runs like a champ. She just wanted more air.
A Weber 38/38 is sitting on the bench all adjusted waiting in the batters box.
I installed cloyes timing gears on my 240. Yes different setup but I had to move over one tooth to get it right and a offset key on the cam gear. Point being you can not trust the marks on the timing gears. I also installed a Schneider cam and I found slight differences between my degreeing numbers and the card. Intake was slightly different but the exhaust was right on. I would not run the cam advanced at 104 degrees. Something is not right.
I just did the math on the timing card and the numbers do not add up.
Left degree wheel is at advertised duration
Intake = 16+180+52 = 248 OK
Exhaust = 60+180+16 = 256 OK
Right degree wheel at 0.050
Intake = 11+180+25 = 216 should be 194 you got 199
Exhaust = 34+180+10 =224 should be 204 you got 222 (34+180+8= 222
From your numbers the cam was ground wrong. No wonder the engine does not run correctly.
Lets work backwards assuming the 248 -256 left timing card is correct.
Intake opening: Intake lobe centerline is 108, duration is 248 so divide 248 by 2 = 124, 124-108 = 16 agrees with card opening
Intake closing: 108+ 124 = 232 - 180 = 52 agrees with card closing
same can be done with the exhaust however exhaust lobe centerline is 112. duration is 256 and is divided by 2 = 128.
128-112 = 16 agrees with timing card
128+112-180 = 60 agrees with timing card
Now we apply the same math to the 0.050 timing
Intake opening: duration is 194 divided by 2 = 97; 97-108 = -11 = 11 ATDC
Intake closing: 108+97 = 205-180 = 25 ABDC; this agrees with the timing card
25+180+(-11) =194
Same can be applied with the exhaust points to find out what the card should read. just substitute the duration for the exhaust of 204.
I would be on the phone with Schneider and get to the bottom of this. If the cam was ground to the 0.050 timing it is way off and would explain why the engine is not running correctly.
Please let us know how you make out.
I just did the math on the timing card and the numbers do not add up.
Left degree wheel is at advertised duration
Intake = 16+180+52 = 248 OK
Exhaust = 60+180+16 = 256 OK
Right degree wheel at 0.050
Intake = 11+180+25 = 216 should be 194 you got 199
Exhaust = 34+180+10 =224 should be 204 you got 222 (34+180+8= 222
From your numbers the cam was ground wrong. No wonder the engine does not run correctly.
Lets work backwards assuming the 248 -256 left timing card is correct.
Intake opening: Intake lobe centerline is 108, duration is 248 so divide 248 by 2 = 124, 124-108 = 16 agrees with card opening
Intake closing: 108+ 124 = 232 - 180 = 52 agrees with card closing
same can be done with the exhaust however exhaust lobe centerline is 112. duration is 256 and is divided by 2 = 128.
128-112 = 16 agrees with timing card
128+112-180 = 60 agrees with timing card
Now we apply the same math to the 0.050 timing
Intake opening: duration is 194 divided by 2 = 97; 97-108 = -11 = 11 ATDC
Intake closing: 108+97 = 205-180 = 25 ABDC; this agrees with the timing card
25+180+(-11) =194
Same can be applied with the exhaust points to find out what the card should read. just substitute the duration for the exhaust of 204.
I would be on the phone with Schneider and get to the bottom of this. If the cam was ground to the 0.050 timing it is way off and would explain why the engine is not running correctly.
Please let us know how you make out.
timson
Well-known member
Wow, super interesting, Wakjob! Sounds like we have a similar setup, so thanks so much for sharing your insights, particularly on the Weber. I´ll need more down the road, I´m sure. I know the Weber needs much attention, but I wanted to start from step 1, timing, before digging into it further. And while I still plan on double-checking the cam timing, this info is very encouraging!
Do you have more info about this mod? I think i´ve seen it mentioned somewhere...
With a progressive setup, I´d just need a hole in the primary flap, right?
Were you able to get your advance back down to a respectable level? What manifold vacuum are you getting?
After some reading, I´ve just ordered a fuel pressure regulator and was going to double-check the float level to get rid of those variables. Drilling that hole (or holes) will be added to the to-do list once I get the cam question resolved.
Cheers!
Tim
timson
Well-known member
Thanks for going over those numbers with a fine-tooth comb, alwill923!
(How did you come up with the 112 exhaust lobe centerline?)
As you can tell, my own measurements have been haunting my mind since i zipped it all up, despite having called Schneider´s at the time and being assured that all would be fine. I think there is a strong possibility that my measurements are wrong, particularly since it was my first time degreeing and my numbers look dubious. That´s enough for me to want to go back and check before calling them again, adding offset keys, timing sets, or whatever. It will be a pain in the arse, but there´s no other way, methinks.
I was planning on installing a new radiator anyway to upgrade from the original 1961 2-row (more questions on that at another time) and I haven´t installed the grill yet, so access isn´t too far off.
Looks like a road-trip will be on the back burner for a while longer!
Again, I really appreciate your scrutiny, alwill923!
Thanks for the support, everyone!
Tim
If the Lobe centerline angle (LSA0 of the cam is 110 and the intake centerline is at 108 then the exhaust has to be at 112. If installed straight up both would be at 110. What you take off of the 110 for the intake (advancing the cam) you must add to the exhaust. Most cams are installed advanced 4 degrees. Sometimes this is installed by the cam manufacturer by the position if the cam keyway. If this cam was installed advanced 4 degrees the intake centerline would be 106 and exhaust centerline 114. The opposite is for retarded cam. The LSA is ground in the cam and can not be changed.
As to the cam card I would call Schneider and have them explain to you how the 0.050 numbers do not add up and give you a correct timing card. This is just simple math.
Maybe your degreeing was off if it was the first time. You should be able to get the 0.050 numbers within a degree. If you try to match your 0.050 cam card numbers they do not not make sense. I would not even try to degree the cam until you get a good timing card.
I feel your pain. Until this is resolved and you determine the cam is correct and installed correctly no carburetor adjustments will fix the problem.
You can degree the cam in the car as already stated. Pull all the spark plugs out and remove the rocker arms so it is easy to turn over. Put a top dead center finding tool in #1 spark plug and find top dead center (TDC). Lots of videos on this on youtube. Cheap tool. The important part is making sure the dial indicator is parallel with the push rod. in all directions stays parallel during movement. This is tricky trying to put the dial indicator on the end of a push rod. We all learned the hard way.
I would install the cam at the intake centerline between 108 and 106 to be close enough. Important to check intake valve to piston clearance. This is another subject.
As to the cam card I would call Schneider and have them explain to you how the 0.050 numbers do not add up and give you a correct timing card. This is just simple math.
Maybe your degreeing was off if it was the first time. You should be able to get the 0.050 numbers within a degree. If you try to match your 0.050 cam card numbers they do not not make sense. I would not even try to degree the cam until you get a good timing card.
I feel your pain. Until this is resolved and you determine the cam is correct and installed correctly no carburetor adjustments will fix the problem.
You can degree the cam in the car as already stated. Pull all the spark plugs out and remove the rocker arms so it is easy to turn over. Put a top dead center finding tool in #1 spark plug and find top dead center (TDC). Lots of videos on this on youtube. Cheap tool. The important part is making sure the dial indicator is parallel with the push rod. in all directions stays parallel during movement. This is tricky trying to put the dial indicator on the end of a push rod. We all learned the hard way.
I would install the cam at the intake centerline between 108 and 106 to be close enough. Important to check intake valve to piston clearance. This is another subject.
timson
Well-known member
Thanks again, alwill923.
I´m not clear on how the printed values on the card are off, so hesitate to call Schneider´s until I am. Bear with me!
The math is easy, but visualizing the rest to see how it works together isn´t so easy for me, so i´m going through it slowly, and mostly by the numbers.
As you look at the printed .050 numbers, that -11 intake opening number is expressed differently: card says "-11 BTDC" whereas you indicate it should read 11 ATDC. Which is the correct one or is that saying the same thing? This is a key distinction for me, as you´ll see below.
When I do the same math for the exhaust, I get the following:
exhaust closing: duration is 204 divided by 2 = 102; 102-112(lobe separation) = -10 = -10 ATDC (this agrees with the card)
exhaust opening: lobe separation (112) + duration/2 (102) = 214-180 = 34 BBDC; this agrees with the timing card, 34+180+ (-10)=204"
So I´m not seeing a clear problem with the printed numbers on the card, yet huge problems with my own numbers. That "-8 BTDC" that I penciled in under -10 ATCD indicates either my measurements or the cam is off by some 18 degrees on the exhaust, and 5 degrees off on the intake??????!!!!!!
On the other hand, if my "-8BTDC" should have been written 8BTDC, and if that is the same as -8ATDC, then I would only be off by 2 degrees on the exhaust closing. My intake opening number is still a concern, but maybe not so much?
Again, the only numbers I see that don´t add up are my own, leading me down the walk of shame and back to summer school.
Tim
I´m not clear on how the printed values on the card are off, so hesitate to call Schneider´s until I am. Bear with me!
The math is easy, but visualizing the rest to see how it works together isn´t so easy for me, so i´m going through it slowly, and mostly by the numbers.
As you look at the printed .050 numbers, that -11 intake opening number is expressed differently: card says "-11 BTDC" whereas you indicate it should read 11 ATDC. Which is the correct one or is that saying the same thing? This is a key distinction for me, as you´ll see below.
When I do the same math for the exhaust, I get the following:
exhaust closing: duration is 204 divided by 2 = 102; 102-112(lobe separation) = -10 = -10 ATDC (this agrees with the card)
exhaust opening: lobe separation (112) + duration/2 (102) = 214-180 = 34 BBDC; this agrees with the timing card, 34+180+ (-10)=204"
So I´m not seeing a clear problem with the printed numbers on the card, yet huge problems with my own numbers. That "-8 BTDC" that I penciled in under -10 ATCD indicates either my measurements or the cam is off by some 18 degrees on the exhaust, and 5 degrees off on the intake??????!!!!!!
On the other hand, if my "-8BTDC" should have been written 8BTDC, and if that is the same as -8ATDC, then I would only be off by 2 degrees on the exhaust closing. My intake opening number is still a concern, but maybe not so much?
Again, the only numbers I see that don´t add up are my own, leading me down the walk of shame and back to summer school.
Tim
Last edited:
Timson
I was thinking about my reply. I used 11 instead of -11 in my original calculations. Go back to my original math.
Exhaust = 34+180+(-10) = 204 OK
MY BAD!!!!! Thank you for checking the math!!
When the card says -11 BTDC this is the same as 11 ATDC for the intake
When the card says -10 ATDC this is the same as 10 degrees BTDC for the exhaust
The card is correct!
If your -6 for the intake opening is actually 6 degrees ATDC then you are close.
If your -8 for the exhaust closing is actually 10 degrees BTDC then you are very close.
You did get the exhaust opening at 34 degrees BBDC and the intake closing at 25 degrees ABDC correct.
The intake closing and the exhaust opening are easy to see because they do not cross over the bottom dead center (BDC) line.
Your numbers are very close to correct as you explained. The errors could be in taking the measurements.
Lets look at your 199 duration for the intake. This is close to the 194 number actually both are off by 5. Your exhaust duration number will be only off by 2 degrees (34+180+(-8) = 206). Again this could be in the set up of the dial indicator. Split the difference on the exhaust and you will be only off by 1 degree on the closing and opening. This will not affect the cam installation or running of the engine. If your 104 intake centerline is based upon your intake measurements then it also is off. The exhaust is very close and the only difference with the exhaust and intake is you had to move the dial indicator from one lifter to the other. Using the exhaust as correct the exhaust centerline is either 111 or 113 making the intake centerline 107 or 109. If all of this is true you are good!
If all of this is true then the cam is not the problem and all the other comments about carburetors may be your answer.
I was thinking about my reply. I used 11 instead of -11 in my original calculations. Go back to my original math.
Intake = -11+180+25 = 194 OK
Exhaust = 34+180+(-10) = 204 OK
MY BAD!!!!! Thank you for checking the math!!
When the card says -11 BTDC this is the same as 11 ATDC for the intake
When the card says -10 ATDC this is the same as 10 degrees BTDC for the exhaust
The card is correct!
If your -6 for the intake opening is actually 6 degrees ATDC then you are close.
If your -8 for the exhaust closing is actually 10 degrees BTDC then you are very close.
You did get the exhaust opening at 34 degrees BBDC and the intake closing at 25 degrees ABDC correct.
The intake closing and the exhaust opening are easy to see because they do not cross over the bottom dead center (BDC) line.
Your numbers are very close to correct as you explained. The errors could be in taking the measurements.
Lets look at your 199 duration for the intake. This is close to the 194 number actually both are off by 5. Your exhaust duration number will be only off by 2 degrees (34+180+(-8) = 206). Again this could be in the set up of the dial indicator. Split the difference on the exhaust and you will be only off by 1 degree on the closing and opening. This will not affect the cam installation or running of the engine. If your 104 intake centerline is based upon your intake measurements then it also is off. The exhaust is very close and the only difference with the exhaust and intake is you had to move the dial indicator from one lifter to the other. Using the exhaust as correct the exhaust centerline is either 111 or 113 making the intake centerline 107 or 109. If all of this is true you are good!
If all of this is true then the cam is not the problem and all the other comments about carburetors may be your answer.
timson
Well-known member
Many thanks again to ya, alwill923! You´re a fantastic math teacher, and I so much appreciate your taking the time to study these numbers and unravel the mystery to reveal some sloppy dial indicator usage and note-taking, which seems to be the most likely explanation to me.
I´ll double check my TDC mark on the balancer, re-gap my plugs, and then shift my focus to the carb to see if I can sort it out the way wakjob suggested. If things start falling into line, great; if not, I´ll revisit my degreeing.
Again, cheers to the lot of ya, and I´ll follow up when I get a chance!
Tim
I´ll double check my TDC mark on the balancer, re-gap my plugs, and then shift my focus to the carb to see if I can sort it out the way wakjob suggested. If things start falling into line, great; if not, I´ll revisit my degreeing.
Again, cheers to the lot of ya, and I´ll follow up when I get a chance!
Tim
I had my HEI recurved by a member here WSA111 (highly recommend it).
Set it up per his instructions...18-20 degrees initial, and it ended up being perfect.
After drilling the holes, I got all the screw settings where they're supposed to be, and it idles with the plates closed.
She pulls so much harder through the mid range in 2nd & 3rd gear, and there's ZERO bog or off idle stumble issues.
And like I said, with a big duration cam, a Weber 32/36 in stock form on a LOG head is going to be an issue.
Get a high altitude jet kit. Get the synchronizing kit. Prepare for some head scratching.
...or buy the 38/38.
I still have the small log with the Vintage Inlines adapter for the Weber.
Hoping for the aluminum head some day.
Set it up per his instructions...18-20 degrees initial, and it ended up being perfect.
After drilling the holes, I got all the screw settings where they're supposed to be, and it idles with the plates closed.
She pulls so much harder through the mid range in 2nd & 3rd gear, and there's ZERO bog or off idle stumble issues.
And like I said, with a big duration cam, a Weber 32/36 in stock form on a LOG head is going to be an issue.
Get a high altitude jet kit. Get the synchronizing kit. Prepare for some head scratching.
...or buy the 38/38.
I still have the small log with the Vintage Inlines adapter for the Weber.
Hoping for the aluminum head some day.
timson
Well-known member
Thanks again, wakjob! Bill recurved my DUI so that´s set. When I can, I´ma go through the carb again and keep that drilling in mind.
Do you happen to have your jet settings handy? I´d appreciate it.
I´ve been looking at a TON of info here about that carb, so I¨m sorting through that too. Will get the AFR gauge ordered soon and dig in.
Cheers!
Tim
Right now...
145/145 Mains
85 Primary Idle
65 Secondary Idle
160/170 Air Correctors on F50 E-tubes
65 Dual Pump Jet
timson
Well-known member
Great, wakjob! Thanks so much!
I can tell now that my idle jets are too lean; comparing your numbers with many others I´ve collected on the site, that´s where I´ll start. in general, people´s numbers are all over the place, so it looks like step by step changes are a must. an AFR gauge is on order; so I´m jumping in.
thanks!
Tim
I can tell now that my idle jets are too lean; comparing your numbers with many others I´ve collected on the site, that´s where I´ll start. in general, people´s numbers are all over the place, so it looks like step by step changes are a must. an AFR gauge is on order; so I´m jumping in.
thanks!
Tim
riley_smitty
New member
I have this exact same issue! What size holes did you put in the primary blade. I have a 32/36 and 38/38. The 32/36 is older so I’m gonna experiment with that before I go and drill holes in the 38/38. Also what cam are you running? I have a 264/264-110 clay smith.
Sorry for the late response... I used a 1/16" or as close to 1mm as you can get.
Do just one plate...put it back together and try it first before drilling the second.
I did the primary side first, then the secondary...which it needed for my build.
I couldn't use that screw under the secondary plate that you can't see unless the carb is off the intake...
It opens up the secondary a little, but I have the "synchro kit"...so it was messing with both plates.
If you do a Youtube search on drilling holes in throttle plates you'll see all the ways it can be done.
Do just one plate...put it back together and try it first before drilling the second.
I did the primary side first, then the secondary...which it needed for my build.
I couldn't use that screw under the secondary plate that you can't see unless the carb is off the intake...
It opens up the secondary a little, but I have the "synchro kit"...so it was messing with both plates.
If you do a Youtube search on drilling holes in throttle plates you'll see all the ways it can be done.
Curious as to where you are located?
Elevation?...this is important !!!
Current Temperature and Humidity?
I live in a valley around 800'.
But on top of any hill I drive up on the regular it will elevate to as much as 1400'...so take that into consideration.
Plus, I only drive my car in the summer months here in Central NY where it's usually hot & humid.
