Shethinkmy77sexy
New member
thats a perrty engine
223 performance build...questions!
- Thread starter GalaxieInline
- Start date
Paps61
Well-known member
Hello all! I am also a new member thank you guys so much for all the detailed info! What a great thread. Galaxieinline I had stumbled across your you tube video trying to find info on the cliffords kit and engine sounds and now here! I am also getting ready to pull and build a 223 in the next few weeks, it’s out of my grandpas old ‘61 f100 unibody. I was going to do something very similar except now instead of the dual 38 Weber’s thinking of doing the Clifford kit but using a single 4 barrel Holley instead of the single Weber, anyone have any experience with running a single 4 vs the dual Weber’s? what cfm would run best, Holley has a 450 cfm mechanical secondaries no choke or was thinking the 600 cfm mechanical secondaries with manual choke.
My reason for going to single 4 is mainly tunability I feel would be better/easier and for brake master cylinder clearance and to use the original oil bath air cleaner if I can mod it to fit the Holley. The cam regrind info all I have is it’s a 268 not a cliffords cam but who they use for regrind, I can post some specs when I get them. Head will be mildly ported and still waiting to see what valve sizes I have and what size to upgrade to. The combo cliffords claims to have 260hp and 320 tq I’m a bit skeptical but even if it’s close to 1 hp per cubic inch I’d be happy with that, I think this will make a nice cruiser with the old 3 on the tree eventually maybe put a gear vendors overdrive in it to keep the 3 speed or upgrade to a T5.
Pmuller what measurements do you need? I know my 223 is untouched original so I can try to get those for you in a few weeks?
Thanks everyone and any advice I would greatly appreciate!
Bubba is the man for these older engines.
Here is some great info to start with.
fordsix.com
Instead of cutting a lot off the block deck and head to raise the compression I would get a custom flat top piston from Autotec/Racetec
I would like to know from either you or Bubba what the block deck height is and the big end width of the connecting rods.
Thanks
Here is some great info to start with.
H.P. engine build 223/262 L 6
I'll try to keep this short so right to the point... I am undertaking a build for a XO/PP class truck for Bonneville in 2017 . I will be using the 223 or 262 ford L6 engine for power... I have started the research and development stage's for the engine and I find almost no information on these...
fordsix.com
Instead of cutting a lot off the block deck and head to raise the compression I would get a custom flat top piston from Autotec/Racetec
I would like to know from either you or Bubba what the block deck height is and the big end width of the connecting rods.
Thanks
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Welcome to the Ford Six forums, back about 12 years ago I had one of original versions of Cliffords Ram Flow single 4V intakes (they had the 2V adapter plates you could use on them too) mine had a 4V Holley 390 CFM (Holley also has a 465 CFM what is good too), that old 4V intake is excellent its a very good design for a 223 or 262 Ford six's. Its second only to their 2 X 4V intake (or 2 X 2V with the simple change of the adapter plates), the 2 X 2V or 2 X 4V intake will make the most power though. If your looking to get your cam reground to a performance spec you can contact Schneider Racing Cams in the SoCal area that offers that service. You might want to start with your own post too so it can be more specific to your build. Best of luck
Schneider Cams Regrind Service
Schneider Cams Regrind Service
Schneider Racing Cams
schneidercams.com
pmuller9, sorry I don't that have that info handy my older books are packed away in storage somewhere in my shop, but it might be in the files of my old desk top, I will see if I can find it. Here is what I do know the stock crankshafts Rod bearing journal size measures 2.298-2.299, stock bearing clearance is .0008 to .0023, the rods small end is .9121. 215 Rod length is 6.260, a 223 is 6.250, and a 262 is 5.156 long. Some have been able to use a 300 Ford Rod in the 223 with a little work.
Thanks Bubba.
The reason I asked about the big end width is, there are fairly inexpensive BBC "H" beam rods in 6.535", 6.635", 6.660", 6.700" and 6.800" lengths.
BBC rods have about the same BE width as the 300 six rods at .990" and of course the rod journals are 2.200"
The 223 pistons have a 1.857" CH and there would be plenty of room for a way longer rod and shorter/lighter Autotec pistons.
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Yes those sure would be some good Rod choices. Going from memory the 223 had a pretty tight quench distance of around .040 to .045 with the old stock steel shim head gasket of about .0022 or .0025 thick. That puts the piston right around .015 to .020 down the hole. So here is my best guess on the deck height is in the 9.909 range. I would say a longer Rod of 6.700 or 6.800 could work with a custom forged piston with a CH of 1.3 or 1.4. What do you think?
That's about what I was thinking.
B&P rods shows the 1954 to 1960 223 rods being 1.230" wide and the 1961 to 1964 rods as 1.060" wide.
Everywhere I looked also showed different rod bearings for those same two year ranges.
It would be good if Paps61 measured the actual rod width when the engine is taken apart.
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Interesting those later rods being narrower would be a little less rotational friction too. I had severial a 1954 223 a couple 1956's and a 1958, yes they didn't seem to have much if any differences in their short block parts. Would have thought the 1957 223 engine was when they really made all the major changes to everything like blocks cranks and rods, that's when Ford started to improve their 223 cylinder heads. Yes that would sure help a lot if he would do those measurements. 1957 was when Ford changed their part number system too. I don't currently have any of these 223 engines left to measure. I know I made a mistake on my above estatameted block deck height on a desmal point placement for one part of it, in checking it over again I come up with a 9.932 deck height I think that's closer but I wonder if I am remembering everything correctly or not. Edited
Paps61
Well-known member
Pmuller9 thank you for the info I read this thread a while back as I was actually wanting to do a single turbo setup on my 223 but decided in the truck if I did that I would switch to a 300 to put the intake/exhaust on the passenger side with more room, but yes definitely going to try and find a flat top piston!Bubba is the man for these older engines.
Here is some great info to start with.
H.P. engine build 223/262 L 6
I'll try to keep this short so right to the point... I am undertaking a build for a XO/PP class truck for Bonneville in 2017 . I will be using the 223 or 262 ford L6 engine for power... I have started the research and development stage's for the engine and I find almost no information on these...
Instead of cutting a lot off the block deck and head to raise the compression I would get a custom flat top piston from Autotec/Racetec
I would like to know from either you or Bubba what the block deck height is and the big end width of the connecting rods.
Thanks
Shouldn’t be a problem getting those measurements, might take a few weeks to a month but I’ll get them for you!
Paps61
Well-known member
Thank you bubba! Reading through many threads your knowledge on these 223’s is impressive! this will actually be my first 6 cylinder build!Welcome to the Ford Six forums, back about 12 years ago I had one of original versions of Cliffords Ram Flow single 4V intakes (they had the 2V adapter plates you could use on them too) mine had a 4V Holley 390 CFM (Holley also has a 465 CFM what is good too), that old 4V intake is excellent its a very good design for a 223 or 262 Ford six's. Its second only to their 2 X 4V intake (or 2 X 2V with the simple change of the adapter plates), the 2 X 2V or 2 X 4V intake will make the most power though. If your looking to get your cam reground to a performance spec you can contact Schneider Racing Cams in the SoCal area that offers that service. You might want to start with your own post too so it can be more specific to your build. Best of luck
Schneider Cams Regrind Service
Schneider Racing Cams
schneidercams.com
Yes I know Jerry and Kevin over at Schneider cams I actually don’t live too far from them, I’ve used them before once on a sbc 383 and recent BBC 489 regrind they are top notch!
Cliffords uses Steve long up in long beach which all I was told was it’s a 268 cam, I believe galaxy in-line used Schneider and his is a 264F grind and clay smith cams also does a 264 grind. Definitely want to compare specs once I know more on the duration and lift numbers, after the head is ported I will have it flowed as well see what matches better!
The Holley 390 cfm was my first choice but it’s vacuum secondaries, I know it will work but was hoping for a mechanical secondary since it’s a manual trans or do you think that matters much?
Are you a fan of the Weber carbs? I might even put on a FI Tech efi setup or Holley makes a sniper system that looks retro, thanks again I will definitely start my own thread I appreciate all the help!
Is the 268 cam in the engine now?
Your welcome Paps61, I was a Southeren California Native there were so many great companies to work with back in the day it was were I learned so much too, sadly quite a few are gone now. Yes Schneider is an excellent cam company, that's really interesting that you found out about Steve Long doing Cliffords Cams, this is something I didn't know about (it's very hard to find out info about the Clifford parts these last year's). There was some troble severial years back with the Clifford's cams on their cam bearing surface finish being to rough (not polished right). A few engine builders had trouble loosing / wiping out their cam bearings quickly, I haven't heard of any recent problems so maybe that issue got resolved. Jack Clifford was a great innovator (RIP) and designed some excellent parts for these Six's, you could sure learn a lot from one of his old catalogs from the 1970's. Yes sure I like the Holley 4V's with the mechanical secondaries my favorites were a pair of the 660 CFM center squirter's that I used on the Tunnel Rams. Yes I also like severial of the Weber Carb's too some are better than others and now days you really need to watch where they were made (country of Origin) if you want something that's of a decent quality. Yes for sure these newer EFI systems are making it really nice now with their new choices too. Best of luck
Paps61
Well-known member
Not yet, the engine is still in the truck, truck is currently at a shop waiting on body and paint, but should have the engine pulled in the next few weeks. Hoping to get a cam card with the specs on the 268 regrind. I found an old cliffords catalog if you scroll down to pg 28 there are 3 cams 260, 270, 280. It will be interesting to see where the 268 grind fits!
On your transmission options here are two others that are worth looking at, these can both use the factory stock column shifter (or Three On The Tree) with the bonus of also retaining a completely Original appearance too.
1. In 1963 the Ford pickups got the new 3.03 all scinrow 3 speed these transmissions besides being bullet proof make driving an older truck so much nicer since you don’t need to come to a complete stop or double clutch it to shift into low. If you can pickup a 1963 or 1964 223 truck bell housing along with the 3.03 trans it should be an easy bolt up. I don’t know if the drive shaft needs any work but if you also found all the parts from the same truck and the wheel base that matches yours it would solve that to. The new trans can adapt to the column shifter with very minor work.
2. Next Is the Borg Warner T85 3 speed with overdrive these are wonderful and super strong in a T85 / R11 truck configuration. They should be close to a direct bolt in if you find the right trans. They were used until about 1972 in the F series pickups. That would likely be much cheaper than a Gear Vender unit and still do the sane thing (see below for short video on how these B & W T85 OD's work).
1966 Ford F100 with a Borg Warner T85 3 Speed with Overdrive showing how they work. This one uses a floor shifter, where as stock most all of these used a column shifter (or 3 on the tree), this install also uses some custom wiring with a toggle switch instead of the factory type gas pedal or throttle linkage switches so it's operation is a little bit different from how a factory stock install works. Another way you can custom wire these when using a floor shifter is to use a line lock switch mounted on the shifter handle for a little quicker shifting. A dash light would be helpful too so you know when the trans is in OD with this type of custom wiring the Solinod switch needs to be switched off when shifting into Reverse or the trans can lock up in two gears, note that this sinareo can't happen with all the factory parts and wiring installed. Best of luck Edited
Search for part number B5A-12390-A. I found a couple sources. There is one (N.O.S.) on E-bay right now. If you don't find it right away, remove the dashes and search for B5A12390A. Specifically, that worked at Green Sales (Green shows 5 in stock if you remove the dashes).I have a question.
Where can I find a fresh 223 distributor drive gear?
I can find listings, but they are all out of stock.
Also, by way of an introduction, I have a '56 f100 panel with 63 223 and T85N trans.
The rest is details.
A locator search reveals:
12 at Dennis Carpenter
5 at Green Sales http://www.greensalescompany.com/
1 at Klimesh Motor Sales, Calmar, IA
1 at Bowman Sales and Service, Bowman, ND
Others:
Auto Parts Obsolete Vintage Classic Antique Auto Parts
NOS, Classic auto parts , Vintage auto parts, Antique auto parts & Obsolete Auto parts for Classic cars Muscle cars from the 40's 50's 60's 70s
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1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 Ford 233ci 6 Cylinder Distributor Gear NOS FOMOCO for sale online | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 Ford 233ci 6 Cylinder Distributor Gear NOS FOMOCO at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
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Good luck with your search,
Lou Manglass
Paps61
Well-known member
Pmuller9 are you still needing these specs?
I finally have the engine out of the truck and at the engine shop just dropped off today, I asked him to give me the deck height, big end of the rod and the width, if anyone needs any other measurements let me know asap! As far as I know my engine is an untouched original 223 out of a ‘61 ford f100
Also Pmuller9 the 268 cam he’s going to make sure I get the specs for it so I will share them with you all when I get them.
