Belated intro and cracked head rebuild

[SweetSix]

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Greetings all,
I've been visiting this site for a few years now, posting only when I really need help- kinda like Homer Simpson praying to the Almighty only when he's really in trouble.
It's time I provide the whole story. Cuz I'm in trouble. Pull up a chair. Get a cold, or hot, beverage.
I live in Southern California. I paid $15 for my first car in 1969 in Chicago- '62 Falcon, 4 door, straight six Futura, don"t remember which displacement. It had a black exterior with a white, spongy vinyl roof, red bucket seats with a chrome center console AND stock 4 speed manual!!! Maybe it was a two-door? Major body rust from Chicago winters. It was so bad that when I'd drive in a snowstorm the snow would blow up through the holes in the passenger floor, much to the chagrin of my girlfriend. Got a picture somewhere of it, gotta find it.
So it was quite a thrill when, 10 years ago, I had the chance to buy a beat up '65 Ranchero 200, C4. It was a mess when I bought it for $500 from the 2nd owner who had it parked in his driveway, idle, in Los Angeles for a couple years, and had done nothing to it after buying it from the original owner who had also done little maintenance on it. I've have slowly been restoring it as time and money allowed.
Before I'd learned of this site I had the engine rebuilt in 2011 by an unknown mechanic who was referred to me by a friend. Over the years I've replaced most of the window and door seals, flushed and repaired the gas tank and radiator, replaced the wheel bearings, brake cylinders, pads, drums, master cylinder, tie rods, center link, idler arm, engine mounts, starter, exhaust, etc, etc. Couple years ago I bought an Autolite 1101 off ebay and installed it with a DSII (after persistent problems with the 1100 and several Pertronix failures).
Last week my block cracked. How that happened is a good, hard lesson learned which I'll briefly share so others don't make same mistake.
16 months ago I bought a new aluminum radiator and thoroughly flushed the engine before installing. However this is where I think I made the first of several mistakes. I mixed the antifreeze with tap water. Didn't use distilled water. Didn't know I should. Very embarrassing.
Then came the next mistake- life intervened and I went out of state for 4 months and the car sat unused until this past December when I took it to a great carb shop, which I highly recommend, here in Oxnard, CA, Pacific Carburetor. In two hours Jeff and Bill had my baby running like I'd always dreamed. So freaking cool! It was running so good that I decided to drive it the 60 highway miles to work the next day. Mistake #3- didn't check the radiator before I did. If I had, I would have found the dark brown, rusty gunk and corrosion that had built up during those 4 idle months and was lurking throughout the cooling system.
The weird thing was that during the commute the next morning, the temp gauge remained right where is always does, nice and cool, for 59.5 miles... until I slowed down at the exit ramp. I saw right away the needle start to rise but thought I could make it the half mile to work, obviously another mistake. I got to work, it was steaming slightly, shut it off and went inside.
At lunch I went out and opened the radiator cap to find that the spring under the cap was so corroded it separated from the cap and the brown gunk covered the inside of radiator. I was horrified of course, but didn't learn of the cracked block until the next day. I felt pretty stupid.
When I cleaned and brushed the block at the crack I found that it appears to be about a one-inch fissure originating from where the water pump/alternator bracket bolt enters the block (I hope to provide pix below) which suggests that bolt was over tightened at some point- another mistake. I don't remember ever replacing the water pump, but I believe I have replaced the alternator and probably am responsible for the over tightened bolt years ago. Jeez.
I'd appreciate any thoughts on any of the above events. Please be kind. I'm a bit fragile at the moment.
I started searching for another '65 block and found one. But then, as I was searching for a Large Log head I found a guy with a '78 200 block, head, and C4 transmission. Hmmm... interesting! He doesn't know anything about the parts other than they were in a dead '65 Ranchero, and that the cylinders are standard bore. I'll check the casting numbers before I commit, but I'm willing to take a chance and buy the package (very reasonably priced) as long as I don't run into formidable fitment problems later... thus the reason for my initial post. Thanks to Bubba's earlier response, it sounds like it should fit.
So now I feel like I'm at the crossroads. And would appreciate your thoughts. I intend to rebuild, but by how much? My intentions for the car is a mild performance upgrade ride, daily/weekend driver. A reliable, fun ride that realizes the potential of our beloved I-6. But I won't be going to the strip. Too much power will just get this geezer in trouble. Trust me.
I'm currently living in a condo and won't have a garage for another 8-12 months. And a lot of the rebuild is out of my mechanical experience anyhow, so I'm hoping to partner with a patient mechanic that will allow me to participate/observe in order to learn. I'd also want him to communicate/supervise with the machinist work which is one of my greatest anxieties. I'm thinking I could provide the VI parts and do the machine shop runs, etc. to keep costs down.
I've read/reread most of the fabulous "tech archive" articles on this site and read/re-read the essential Handbook so many times that almost every other line is highlighted and the pages are beginning to fray. As long as I'll be undertaking a rebuild, it certainly seems obvious to address the deficiencies of the '65 small log head and look also for a large log head. But as long as I'll be rebuilding the head... what about a three-angle valve job, upgraded valves, springs, lifters, cam, cam bearings, main bearings, ARP Studs, dual roller timing chain...??? I'd also love to upgrade to one of the Weber 2vs, either the 32/36 DGV or the 38/38 DGS. Undecided. I know the Handbook highly recommends the DGV, but my guys at Pacific Carburetor love and recommend the DGS. At the moment I'm favoring the progressive DGV.
I've also done the $ math, which is... daunting. My VI parts shopping list alone is up to $2k to do it right and that's without machining, mechanic labor costs plus whatever else I'm overlooking. I want to rebuild the large log head for reliable, increased performance but don't have unlimited funds. I would appreciate your thoughts on where I can trim the large log rebuild budget, if possible. BTW- I've pushed a planned headers purchase/install until after the rebuild
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to convey the full picture. I'll be needing advice along the way for sure. Thanks

 

[wsa111]

The first thing you do with the 78 head is have it cracked checked. Install an exhaust port divider in 3-4 exhaust ports. Then again have it checked for cracks after welding divider.
Then install new valves & valve springs to match your cam.
Mill the head .070" to get the compression back to normal.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, what antifreeze did you use? Mixing with tap water can't turn antifreeze to mud like that. Neither can sitting for four months. Too bad about the crack. I've never seen a block crack like that. Good luck with your project.

 

[bubba22349]

Are you planing to use the 1978 block now?

 

[SweetSix]

Thanks for weighing in guys! I'm really curious about the causes of the cracked block. The brown muck and corrosion is so extreme!
But certainly the location of the crack points to over-torque of water pump/ alt bracket bolt some years ago.
Pretty sure I used Prestone antifreeze cuz I remember using their flush product. I was really fastidious with flushing multiple times. And I'm confident that I bought/installed the aluminum radiator in August of 2019 cuz I looked it up on my amazon account.
Yes Bubba, I picked up the '78 block, head today along with the '78 C4. Taking all with to meet mechanic tomorrow. I'll take more pix of the new treasures and post asap.
And yes Billy, planning on checking for cracks first thing. Got these items from the wonderful Russ Wall, Azusa, CA, 626-969-8157 who will give full refund if cracks are found.
However I wasn't planning to mess with the exhaust port divider cuz Tech Archive "Hopping up the Falcon Six" states, "A port divider, which is used to split the 3rd and 4th exhaust ports to enhance performance, once considered a requirement for upgrading the exhaust system, has become questionable over the past few years. Many FordSix.com forum members have installed them, only to have them break loose, which results in a very annoying rattle. Once removed the port divider is usually discarded, as very little difference (if any) is observed. It’s not clear if any testing has been done to validate the installation of the port divider, hence future testing is planned to verify the benefits, one way or the other. " Is this wrong or debateable?
Again, many thanks for your input, all. Very much appreciated!

 

[bubba22349]

Hi SweetSix, great that you picked up that 1978 block and trans. Here is my suggestion on rebuilding the 78 block. Check to see if it has the cast conecting rods in it. If it dose I would remove your forged set of conecting rods from your old 1965 block to use. Install a set of the ARP rod bolts in them and have them re built they can also have the beams polished and shot penned this would be much stronger than the cast con rods. Next I would only bore the block out enough to get the cylinders back true holly this could be as little as .020 to .030 to keep the cylinder walls as strong as possable. If you don't plan on a Turbo install than a set of the aftermath cast rebuilder pistions will be good for steers use you are planing. You can usally get a master kit that includes all the parts and gaskets for a reasonable price likely your machinist will be helping you. Yes on the double roller timing chain set. A standard duty oil pump is good to use, if you can install some baffling in the oil pump to keep oil around the oil pick up tube and that's all you need for the oiling system. You can clean up al the casting flash in the block and head with a grinder or drill no need to go crazy but it can help also on the head for oil drain back I used to paint all my race motors inside with the red glycol which als helps them stay a little cleaner and for oil return just depends on how much effort you want to do.

It's best to zero deck the block, with the small dished pistions, and the head at 52 CC you sould be at or 9.0 to 1 Coperssion ratio which the little 200's respond well at with regular 87 if you want to run higher grade fuel you could go up to 9.5 to 1 or sometimes more at sea level. You could also used a flat top pistion and than not cut the head chambers down as much. Crank should be checked and measured you may only need a poshish and fresh bearings. Do you have a cam choice yet? The ARP heads studs are very good especially if your plaining to Turbo your 200 they also make bolts too. If your budget is a bit lower once you check the condistion of the 1978 block it might even be posable to do a low budget rebuild with a rering kit which is about 100.00 to 125.00 range for the parts. There can be more to discus after you have found out the condistion of it. Be sure to save what you can from your 1965 engine you can likely sell some of it off to help cut some of your costs.

Absolutely yes on a three angle valve job and back cutting it gives the flow and power for its low cost. Yes on the better cam and springs ect. If you valves are needing replacement and its in you budget than yes on the better SS valves 1 3/4 or 1.84 inch intake and the 1 1/2 inch exhaust. The 1978 heads had seats suitable for today's unleaded fuels. If you can afford it there is benifit in cleaning up and blending the valve bowls and narrowing the valve guides to about 1 inch below the seats. Yes there is some controversy on the port dividers coming loose and rattling as if they work as little to no test were down. I am old school and still think there is a good benifit in using them. They do need to be fitted properly and this takes some time and care grinding and fitting a little at a time so that that it's a slight interference fit they will then be setting up slightly above the 3 and 4 ports should be V'ed a little and welded in three or 4 places then surfaced. I also believe another benefit of these port dividers is to keep some of the exhaust heat going up to the carb which can cause boiling and vapor lock especially with the fuels we now have today. It is also common for these heads to crack in the 3 and 4 port area and I think the port divider also helps with that. Lastly we have better port flow again if the divider is fitted properly which may or may not be that much but I think it all helps and add up. If your using a one to 2V carb adapter than open up the crab hole to 2 or 2 1/8 inch and radius the bottom of the hole going into the log this helps to increase flow and to turn into the log. If your going to direct mount your Weber that's better still but again radius the bottom of the holes to help flow going into the heads log. There is benifit to porting the exhaust a little to for better flow. We can get into this more to you would like. Good luck

 

[SweetSix]

Thank you for the above advice!
But at the moment there's... Casting Number Confusion. A tale of woe... pull up a chair.
So... what was purported, by the reputable seller, to be a '78 200 block, head, and trans, turns out to be a 250 block, an '80 head, and a '74 trans.
Block casting numbers: D8DE 6015-DA (Photos below)
When I checked the "Block Identification" chart in the Handbook, I saw that the D8DE-CD,GD,GE was listed as a '78-'79 Fairmont 200 which is what the seller told me. I didn't notice until today that further at the bottom of the same page in the "250 Cubic Inch engines" section, very last line, it also lists casting codes D8DE-CC.
Adding to my confusion was on page 77 of the Handbook, (which I greatly value and am in no way criticizing!), under "De-mystifying Casting Numbers" it states, "Last digit/s (may be one or two digits) indicate a design change." Is this referring to only cylinder head casting numbers or does it also include block numbers?
I didn't realize that it was a 250 until I took the disassembled block to a machine shop and the sharp-eyed machinist said that the crank looked like a 250 crank and checked his casting number source book.
In retrospect, I didn't check the position of the starter (low-mount v high mount) nor do I know what a v/8 styled bell housing bolt pattern looked like. More rookie mistakes. Arghhh... Lesson learned: Thoroughly check ALL identification methods when picking parts.
I'll be taking the 250 block back to the seller tomorrow and exchange it for a '65 200 block that he also has. (He says that he's going to scrap the 250 block, crank, et al... is it worth anything? It's now completely disassembled)

Now onto the head that I bought at the same time. Casting numbers: EOBE-6090-BB. It was attached to the block. I checked the numbers before I bought it. OK, I thought, it's not a'78, it's an '80 head, but still a "Large Log", just what I wanted. But I now see that the Handbook, on the "Head Identification" page also has it listed under both the 200 and 250 CI sections, but on the very last line of the page in the "notes column" states, "Undesirable, smog fitting head w/1.75 Intake bore." Huhh?? Undesirable???
Does anyone know what this means please!!! I can't find any other reference to it anywhere else in the Handbook. I'd like to make this head work cuz Large Logs are hard to find and I've already had it Magnafluxed. But I don't know why it's "Undesirable". Doesn't sound good.

Now about the C4 trans that also came with this package I bought. Casting # D4DP-7006-AA. Can anyone shed some light on these numbers please? Is it from '74? Is it a C4? Will it match up and fit nicely with my anticipated '65 200 block in my '65 Ranchero?? I haven't found any info about transmission casting numbers.

Lastly, I realized that I've never checked the casting numbers on the trans that I currently have in my '65 Ranchero, always assuming that it was a '65 C4. Low and behold, the casting numbers on it: C4AP-7AO40-C-BK. Holy Crap!! What the hell does that mean? Is it a '64... something? Now I'm really spooked by possible evils lurking in casting numbers. Is this a C4 and will it stand up to the mild performance upgrade I'm planning? How does one distinguish a C4 from a C3?
Many thanks for any insights!

 

[bubba22349]

Yes the 250 block crank and other parts are worth something these are great six'es if I was near by your location I would come get that compleate short block. As to the head number being undesirable this has come up a few times this is a misprint it's near the last of the production of small six heads and was used on both the 200 and 250 engine there is no differance. The fact that it's a 1980 is great it's an even better head than a 1978 heads and also has the biggest log. My last large log head was that same casting number they are great if there is anything undesirable about it it's the EGR ports under the carb mounting boss these can blocked off there is also a threaded boss at the front of the log this may or maynot be a good location depending on your needs but again if it's not then a simple pipe plug can seal that. On Design / Casting numbers yes the last letters at the end are how you determine if the part was redesigned from its orginal design.

Yes your old trans is a 1964 design number this was the first year that the C4 was made and how it got its name C4 but you need the other numbers and letter from the tag code on the servo cover to know the real year and the aplacation for the trans so it's possable it's a 1965 and maybe orginal to your Ranchero if it's a 1964, 1965, or 1966 these are all going to be the duel range C4's ie P, R, N, D1, D2, L gear lindcator pattern these are not the best trans for any performance build without changing a number of parts. The good news is yes that your new trans is a 1974 or newer C4 that's stronger also has the better select shift valve body P, R, N, D, 2, 1, gear patteren and that means it has all the best factory improvements and is perfect for any performance use. It can probally work fine for you in your 1965 by changing the bell housing from the 6 bolt V8 bell to your six bell, you will need to change torque convertor to a 1972 up six torque convertor or you can even get a better custom one built for more stall speed if you want. So you did very well on your purchase and parts there all very good except for you not having a 200 block to use. By the way will a little work you could even use that 250 short block in your 1965 check your Falcon performance book for the details. Best of luck.

 

[SweetSix]

Thanks again Bubba! Great news!!
Yeah, I've seen the 3-4 modifications needed for the 250 into my 65 Ranchero, but don't want to go there. Don't need to.
Now you got me thinking of holding onto the 250 block myself. Yikes. More stuff to store, deal with. But I just hate to imagine it scrapped. I'll post it on the "For Sale" forum sometime soon.
Interesting about the C4 numbers on the servo cover. I noticed that there were different #s on the servo cover of the C4 I just bought. But I assumed that it was a replacement part slapped on there. Photo below
i'm gonna have to study up on C4s. Do you have a suggestion on a good source, book, or article?

 

[bubba22349]

Those numbers you found on the cover are just that parts design number these small parts are easyly changed so it may or may not be orginal to the trans when it was built. I offen change these servo covers to tune the trans for performance use to give it a quicker or stronger band apply.

The the Ford Trans Application Number you are looking for is located on a single cover bolt its a metal tag and will have mostly letters and maybe number stamped into it. Looks something like this "PEE-BH" in this example the trans number decodes as it being built for a 1974 Maverick with a 302 V8 having a column shift and was also built for the California sales market (DSO). Good luck

 

[Viperwolf1]

The D4DP C4 is a 1977. You can see the date in the cast in circles below the engineering number. The A servo would work well behind a warmed up six. The C4AP engineering number refers only to the tail housing. The actual trans number could be very different. I agree the later C4 is the better one to use.

 

[SweetSix]

Thanks Bubba, Viperwolf. Appreciate your insight. I've got more homework to do.
There's no tag on newly acquired C4.
Expecting block evaluation results soon from machinist.

 

[SweetSix]

Greetings All, update on my 200 rebuild-
I heard back from the machinist who gave a thumbs up after inspecting my newly acquired '66 200 block. Happy bout that! It is a standard bore and he's recommending 30 over bore and a minimal crank grind to remove scoring. Last week I had the '80 large log head magnafluxed and also got thumbs up, so very happy bout that too!

Now I'm putting together my rebuild parts shopping list from Vintage Inlines and seek guidance please.
To review- I'm looking to to make mild performance upgrades for my '65 Ranchero daily driver with an emphasis on reliability, durability, and a fun ride, while not breaking the bank. I'll still have a planned '77 C4 rebuild, front end, headers/muffler, brakes, and audio upgrades down the road to pay for. Yikes

I've been pouring over The Handbook and Tech Archive articles forever. Here's what I'm thinkin:
Weber DGV 32/36 via adaptor, not 2V conversion, but still hogging out large log carb intake to 2"-2.125", including radius machining ala Xtasy method (thanks to Bubba for suggestions). VI Cam: 264/264, 112. Zero deck block. Machine head approx .050 to bring combustion chamber to 52cc to achieve 9.0-9.5 C/R. New lifters, 289 springs, Valve job including new seats, balance rotating assembly.

Couple Qs:
-Vintage Inlines Weber DGV 32/36 kit has options for electric/manual choke- I'm thinking electric. Will this require any mods for my '66 block?
-Also for the Weber kit is option for Airtex electric fuel pump or Weber fuel pressure regulator. What's the diff? preferences?
-Opinions please on the Melling oil pump and the High Flow water pump also on the VI site.
-Lastly, what're favored sources/vendors for other parts which VI doesn't have?
Thanks

 

[bubba22349]

1. No block mods are needed for either the manual or electric choke Carbs.
2. Ifyou wanted to use the stock mechanical engine mounted fuel pump than you use the pressure regulator. The Weber’s don’t tolerate higher fuel pressure, this is the simple fix. If you like an electric fuel pump better then you just pull the stock fuel pump and block off the mounting hole with a plate: Plumb the fuel lines and wire the electric fuel pump to you ignition switch (or a toggle switch for manual control) some also put in an oil pressure switch for safety so the fuel pump can’t run if the engine is off of in case of an accident.
3. If your rod and main bearing clearances are not set excessive than a stock spec Melling oil pump is perfect.
4. I had lots of places I sourced parts from in SoCal and the Central Valley area Speed O Motive Covina,, Eggie Machine Santa Fe Springs, another two AWE? can’t remember right now one was in Bakersfield and was supplier for the local NAPA machine shop dealer I used. I think Speed o motive is gone now or they moved out. Best of luck

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, I would get the valve springs the cam manufacturer recommends, the excellent adjustable timing chain set from VI, and remember to degree your cam. Also cc the combustion chamber first to see if the head has been milled. There are easy porting tips in the Handbook. Good luck

 

[SweetSix]

Thanks guys. Is there an advantage to the electric fuel pump if wired properly?

 

[SweetSix]

...and is there a considerable advantage to the High Flow water pump over stock? It certainly sounds good

 

[bubba22349]

One good advantage of an electric fuel pump is for cars or trucks that aren’t daily driven. With the fuels we have now if it sets a few days sometimes even in a few hours in the summer time heat the carbs fuel evaporates then the electric pump can prime the carb quicker so there is a lot less cranking with your starter.

Another benefit is s you can hide the pump pump switch some were you only know about and it’s then a simple anti theft device. The one disadvantage some people might not like is their noise but if you mount them with some rubber between the pump and the cars frame it’s not to bad. Best of luck.

 

[SweetSix]

Thank you!