200ci Echo -1955 Rebuild's His 1965 Mustang 200 I6 Block.

[echo1955]

Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.
I bought my 65 in 65. I brought it back to life in 98. I had to repaint it a couple months ago because my prized 100 lb Lab played catch me iffen ya can wid a 10 lb cat. Their playground was the top of my FB. Scratched the paint all the way down to metal.

This is where it was:

This is where I is now..

It sat up on blocks for about 25 years in California. The engine runs great. It has 68000 mi on it. The compression is 165 across 5 cylinders. 155 on the # 3 cylinder.

I want to put AL head from CI. A 3 carb manifold when CI gets them in stock. Dual headers. DUI ignition.

This is my Code: 63A-5-26-23B-62-2-6
I believe it has a C4 Automatic trans. I have no clue what the torque converter is other than it is original.

I will be driving the car about 5000 mi a year. To car shows and once in a while to keep it running good. I don’t mind a slight rough idle.
I want some increase in performance.

Q:
1: Should I rebuild the block back to stock.
2: What would be the best carb.
3: What would be the best cam.
4: Is my torque converter ok as is

There is so much information concerning cam selection I can’t get my mind wrapped around it..

I understand and appreciate any input members may have will be their opinions offered to help me make my efforts a DIRT-FT…

“”Do It Right The-First Time””…
Thanks again..
Roy

PS My prized Lab survived with out injuries..... I haven't found the cat yet :mrgreen:

 

[rbohm]

Q:
1: Should I rebuild the block back to stock.

you want to make sure that the bottom end is solid. to that end i would rebuild it to stock specs, but use upgraded parts, like ARP fasteners and federal mogul bearings, and moly faced rings.

2: What would be the best carb.

since you are going to use the aluminum head, you have a good choice of carbs, for the small six i suggest using the 390 cmf holley four barrel carb.

3: What would be the best cam.

start by determining what compression ratio you are going to use, 9.5:1 is a good choice for a street engine, the select a cam that will work best in the rpm range you plan to use the engine in, for a street engine that would be about 1000-5000 rpm. since you would have a choice of lobe separation angles if you buy the cam from classicinlines, i suggest using the 112 degree cam since you have the automatic.

4: Is my torque converter ok as is

it should be unless you are going drag racing regularly. the stock converter stalls at about 1200-1500 rpm.

There is so much information concerning cam selection I can’t get my mind wrapped around it..

I understand and appreciate any input members may have will be their opinions offered to help me make my efforts a DIRT-FT…

“”Do It Right The-First Time””…
Thanks again..
Roy

there is an article about cam selection at the classicinlines site that has a lot of good information.

PS My prized Lab survived with out injuries..... I haven't found the cat yet :mrgreen:

perhaps the cat has decided that the dog is too high an energy level, and decided to head for greener pastures?

 

[echo1955]

Thank you rbohm for such a fast reply..

you want to make sure that the bottom end is solid. to that end i would rebuild it to stock specs, but use upgraded parts, like ARP fasteners and federal mogul bearings, and moly faced rings.

I can’t rebuild my self. Maybe CI will be able to recommend a shop that will use the parts you recommend. They are just down the road a piece..

since you are going to use the aluminum head, you have a good choice of carbs, for the small six i suggest using the 390 cmf holley four barrel carb.

Does this mean 390cfm x3 = 1170 total cfm.

start by determining what compression ratio you are going to use, 9.5:1 is a good choice for a street engine, the select a cam that will work best in the rpm range you plan to use the engine in, for a street engine that would be about 1000-5000 rpm. since you would have a choice of lobe separation angles if you buy the cam from classicinlines, i suggest using the 112 degree cam since you have the automatic.

Does this mean I need to have the block built first.

Here are some cam choices CI offers.
#Class I (200° - 215°)
Good idle quality. Low rpm torque and mid range performance.Will work with
stock or slightly modified engine. Manual or auto transmission.
#Class II (215° - 230°)
Fair idle quality. Good low to mid range torque and horsepower. Will work with
stock or modified engine. For use with manual or automatic transmission with mild stall converter. Lower vacuum than stock.

Which of the 2 choices above does the 112* fit in.. I think I like Class II. Will I be going too far out on the limb.. Fair idle quality will be fine for me..


Drag racing is not in the cards for me… so keep the converter..
Thanks again rbohm. You have been very helpful and I am still reading the teck articles at CI.

 

[echo1955]

rbohm you got me thinking again. The environment I had to paint my car in is not ideal for putting an engine together. I had to paint the car in sections and was able to sand the clear coat to remove the dust particles. (not enough OP to note)

I just talked to my son-in-law and he said I could use his 2-car garage. It’s sparkling clean and weather protected.

It’s been 30 years since I rebuilt an engine. However I still have all the tools needed. Well except for a cam bearing, degree wheel and dial indicator tool.
I should be able to pick up the torque specs I need on the Internet.

I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.

Today is I be ok there..
Thanks again rbohm for your time and help. Much appreciated be me..

 

[Gene Fiore]

I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.

It is really imperative IMHO to degree the camshaft...there is no guarantee that the cam is ground precisely per the cam card specs from the manufacturer. Even if you line up the marks you could end up with a camshaft that is severely retarded which would hurt performance big time.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

First , Great Car , not many 6cyl Fastbacks , That said if it was Mine , Id swap in a 250 rather than Rebuild the 200, the 50 Cubes will do wonders for the performance your looking for and, it also opens up the door for Better , more Cost effective upgrades , the big one being Cam / Torque Converter options , as it has the same Bell Pattern as a V-8 , The Engine will fit fine with the 200 mounts if you add a small hood scoop , Shelby Style / Teardrop / something Period correct is what Id suggest , or better still a all Glass Teardrop hood ( there is a Vendor In Calif that sells them ) Don't forget projects tend to snow ball , once started ( you change one thing , you need to change 2 more to make it work/correct , Brake upgrade to 5 lug all around , maybe disc in front , ( although the 65-66 cars are so light Drum's work great when upgraded to the 10 inch V-8 stuff ) 10x2.25-2.5 , as compared to 9x2.25 , along with that comes the steering linkage and upgrade to a 8inch rear ( as gear upgrades will demand at least that) , or your engine mods won't be used to their best advantage,I can go on BUT!!, I think you see where I am going , If you don't plan on spending less than 6-8000 Id think serious abut what you want , can afford, because your looking at that amount as a minimum , for what its worth ------------

 

[echo1955]

I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.

It is really imperative IMHO to degree the camshaft...there is no guarantee that the cam is ground precisely per the cam card specs from the manufacturer. Even if you line up the marks you could end up with a camshaft that is severely retarded which would hurt performance big time.

Roger that. The best learning experience I ever got over the years
IS
Never question Experience..
I will degree the cam .

 

[echo1955]

First , Great Car , not many 6cyl Fastbacks , That said if it was Mine , Id swap in a 250 rather than Rebuild the 200, the 50 Cubes will do wonders for the performance your looking for and, it also opens up the door for Better , more Cost effective upgrades , the big one being Cam / Torque Converter options , as it has the same Bell Pattern as a V-8 , The Engine will fit fine with the 200 mounts if you add a small hood scoop , Shelby Style / Teardrop / something Period correct is what Id suggest , or better still a all Glass Teardrop hood ( there is a Vendor In Calif that sells them ) Don't forget projects tend to snow ball , once started ( you change one thing , you need to change 2 more to make it work/correct , Brake upgrade to 5 lug all around , maybe disc in front , ( although the 65-66 cars are so light Drum's work great when upgraded to the 10 inch V-8 stuff ) 10x2.25-2.5 , as compared to 9x2.25 , along with that comes the steering linkage and upgrade to a 8inch rear ( as gear upgrades will demand at least that) , or your engine mods won't be used to their best advantage,I can go on BUT!!, I think you see where I am going , If you don't plan on
spending less than 6-8000
Id think serious abut what you want , can afford, because your looking at that amount as a minimum , for what its worth ------------

Well you got that right.. At this time I'm looking for more candy with a little more spunk than performance. . I have already put power steering on it.
The rest as you suggested, I will leave to my grand kids when they get there..

In the mean time I still want to drive it some more...... :mrgreen:

 

[Freddy]

I am currently building a '65 200 block (with '72 200 crank and rods). Have already ordered a CI head, here is what I am doing to the rest of the engine:

Bored .030 Honed with 280 grit for moly rings
Flat top pistons (From Tempo HSC engine) calculated static CR to be 9.3:1
Balanced rot/recip assembly
ARP rod bolts - resized rods (necessary when replacing bolts)
Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
Yella Terra 1.65:1 Roller Rockers
CI Stainless Header
Holley 390cfm 4bbl carb
Still debating about ignition...

Hope this gives you some ideas... It is my intent that this combination will provide substantial power gains while remaining driveability and great gas mileage.

 

['68falconohio]

Sweet car!

I'm with FalconSedanDelivery on a 250 vs a 200 if you start from scratch. If you're going trip carbs on a CI head, were you thinking side drafts? Anyone know if hood clearance would even come into play(250, side-drafts)?

 

[early ford fan]

Sweet car!

I'm with FalconSedanDelivery on a 250 vs a 200 if you start from scratch. If you're going trip carbs on a CI head, were you thinking side drafts? Anyone know if hood clearance would even come into play(250, side-drafts)?

if you want to stay with a 200 i would still attempt to find a 1981-84 200 engine or block so an automatic overdrive trans will bolt up.the price of gas will always go up.

 

[MPGmustang]

I'm going to put my $.02 in by this link... it's my dream/future build on a mustang, you can take any idea from it if you'd like.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57006

I like the:
CI alum head
250ci block or big bell 81-83 200ci block
AOD trans, or maybe a 6speed auto for a v8

 

[rbohm]

8) a few things;

Does this mean 390cfm x3 = 1170 total cfm.

no, the 390 cfm indicates the total flow of the carb with all four barrels open at 1.5" of vacuum.

I can’t rebuild my self. Maybe CI will be able to recommend a shop that will use the parts you recommend. They are just down the road a piece..

most shops will work with you, and use the parts you specify, otherwise they use what normally buy. for instance if a shop normally uses factory style fasteners, that is what they will put in the engine, unless you specify ARP fasteners. at some shops there is an up charge for this, at others you supply the fasteners you want, and still others will just install the parts you want without extra charge. talk to the builder before you have them build the short block as to what they do.

Does this mean I need to have the block built first.

Here are some cam choices CI offers.
#Class I (200° - 215°)
Good idle quality. Low rpm torque and mid range performance.Will work with
stock or slightly modified engine. Manual or auto transmission.
#Class II (215° - 230°)
Fair idle quality. Good low to mid range torque and horsepower. Will work with
stock or modified engine. For use with manual or automatic transmission with mild stall converter. Lower vacuum than stock.

Which of the 2 choices above does the 112* fit in.. I think I like Class II. Will I be going too far out on the limb.. Fair idle quality will be fine for me..

you dont have to have the block built first. you can either pick the parts you want ahead of time, or buy them as you go. there are a few good compression ratio calculators on the net, or i believe the formula is in the falcon six handbook as well.

as for the cam choice, i start by picking the desired rpm range where i want the cam to work, then decide on cam specs. you can fudge those specs one way or the other as you like. as for idle quality, that can be fudged also when tuning the engine. for instance, sometimes a can with a slightly rough idle can be made smooth by drilling two small holes in the throttle plates to let more air in, and running a slightly rich idle mixture. adding a little initial timing also affects idle quality.

t’s been 30 years since I rebuilt an engine. However I still have all the tools needed. Well except for a cam bearing, degree wheel and dial indicator tool.
I should be able to pick up the torque specs I need on the Internet.

any shop manual will have teh torque specs, and i think i saw them in the falcon six handbook as well. you can even use the torque specs from a late model 3.3l inline six as they are all the same. as for the cam bearings, i suggest, rather i recommend highly that you have the machine shop install new cam bearings id they are needed. all it takes is for one bearing to be slightly cocked, and you will have issues installing the cam, and turning the engine over by hand. i found that out the hard way.

I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.

as indicated you really should degree the cam for best performance. and there are good reasons for that;

1: the cam may be slightly off one way or the other

2: the timing gears may be off one way or the other

3: the crank key way and/or the cam gear locating pin may be off one way or the other

4: they all may be off one way or the other, and you will have to deal with tolerance stack. this is where all the parts are slightly off but with in specs, but the tolerance is off thsame way on everything which ends up with the overall tolerance being out of spec.

The environment I had to paint my car in is not ideal for putting an engine together. I had to paint the car in sections and was able to sand the clear coat to remove the dust particles. (not enough OP to note)

i have rebuilt engines in areas that would scare most engine rebuilders, and have never had an issue. the key is to keep everything as clean as possible, and to bag the engine when you are not working on it. something like a 30-50 gallon plastic garbage bag does nicely. the thicker the better.

 

[echo1955]

Sweet car!

I'm with FalconSedanDelivery on a 250 vs a 200 if you start from scratch. If you're going trip carbs on a CI head, were you thinking side drafts? Anyone know if hood clearance would even come into play(250, side-drafts)?

I don’t feel comfortable with a side draft set up at all. I do not know what version tri carb setup CI will offer. I just assumed it would be a top mount. After looking at CI intake they currently offer I would think their new tri carb would fallow suit allowing for hood clearance.. They seem to be holding it close to their vest at the moment.

Looks as tho I be back to planning stage wid a wait and see..
I know Offenhauser is coming back out with theirs sometime in Oct.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5205/?rtype=10
This version has to be fitted to the existing intake.

I don’t mind going this route if I have to, but I really really really rather not.

I had already finished painting the car. Then I bumped into this site and saw a thread here with a tri carb setup. I thought hey I like that. So I pulled the fenders and the motor. Sandblasted the engine bay and painted it. My time and a few $$ is all it cost me. I already had the tools needed.

That cost me 16 bucks for sand I got from Home Depot. Spent $175 for paint leaving me with enough paint to do several more engine compartments.
FalconSedanDelivery has the right idea. I’m just don’t got the cash to go that far.

 

[echo1955]

early ford fan
if you want to stay with a 200 i would still attempt to find a 1981-84 200 engine or block so an automatic overdrive trans will bolt up.the price of gas will always go up.

My thinking here is to get some nice candy within my cost range. The car will go to my daughter. My grandson will have the time and opportunity to build it further should he take the interest.

Meanwhile I want to go to car shows while I can still drive… :mrgreen:

 

[echo1955]

I'm going to put my $.02 in by this link... it's my dream/future build on a mustang, you can take any idea from it if you'd like.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57006

I like the:
CI alum head
250ci block or big bell 81-83 200ci block
AOD trans, or maybe a 6speed auto for a v8

Your funds are welcome here by me.. I saw your interest in a one wire alternator.
Alternator----------- 1 wire 140 amp
This is what it looks like on the breakfast table..

It is 130A and I bought it from Performance Distributors
http://www.performancedistributors.com/ ... -mramp.htm
1MR-130-F Cost $313 including sh

 

[echo1955]

rbohm don’t give up on me..
I’m trying to understand. According to the tech info CI has posted, the carb set up should equal the cfm the engine build calls for plus or minus a bit..

Staying with the 200 ci, If I use a mild build with aluminum head and large valves the engine will require 330 to 355 cfm.

If I have 3 carb, using center carb for normal driving and the outer 2 closed the engine would be getting 390 cfm.
According to the plus or minus rule this should be fine.

If I put metal to floor using all 3 carbs, now the engine will be getting 1170 cfm.

Q:
1: Is I correct with my thinking
2: If I is correct, will the added cfm cause me problems

My current plan is to have the machine shop bore the block. Install cam bearings, and press the piston rods. I supply everything needed.

Only because I can, have the time and in the end, I guess because I’m just an old cynical so-&-so.. :mrgreen:

 

[bookworm007]

The 390 is a four barrel that alot of people with the CI head have used with the 4 barrel intake. Its a single carb with 4 barrels and it was used on alot of small blocks. There hasn't been a triple barrel intake for the CI head yet and I don't know when will come out, but thats not to say some one with good enough fab skills couldn't make one up. If you go the triple carb route most people use 2 weber ICH and 1 weber ICT or vis versa can't quite remember one type has a choke and the others don't and you only need one choke. Others have used different one barrels like holleys and such but basically for the triples deal you just need 3 one barrels with the right bolt pattern.

 

[rbohm]

rbohm don’t give up on me..
I’m trying to understand. According to the tech info CI has posted, the carb set up should equal the cfm the engine build calls for plus or minus a bit..

Staying with the 200 ci, If I use a mild build with aluminum head and large valves the engine will require 330 to 355 cfm.

If I have 3 carb, using center carb for normal driving and the outer 2 closed the engine would be getting 390 cfm.
According to the plus or minus rule this should be fine.

If I put metal to floor using all 3 carbs, now the engine will be getting 1170 cfm.

Q:
1: Is I correct with my thinking
2: If I is correct, will the added cfm cause me problems

bookworm007 hit the nail on the head. the 390 cfm carb from holley is a four barrel carb, and you would use only one of those.

 

[echo1955]

The 390 is a four barrel that alot of people with the CI head have used with the 4 barrel intake. Its a single carb with 4 barrels and it was used on alot of small blocks. There hasn't been a triple barrel intake for the CI head yet and I don't know when will come out, but thats not to say some one with good enough fab skills couldn't make one up. If you go the triple carb route most people use 2 weber ICH and 1 weber ICT or vis versa can't quite remember one type has a choke and the others don't and you only need one choke. Others have used different one barrels like holleys and such but basically for the triples deal you just need 3 one barrels with the right bolt pattern.

Thank you bookworm. You did clean out a few cobwebs.
I did some research and it is Two-34ICH w/o choke and One-32/36 DGV Mannual Choke Weber Carburetor
I still don't have a clear picture but I know it can be dun.