Engine rebuild for daily

Haha yeah project definitely grew... keep looking at it and thinking I may as well change this and change that while I have the surrounding area torn apart haha. I'm definitely hoping I can get it pretty well finished and driving here in the next few weeks.

I got the short block and head back from the shop a little over a week ago. I'm not to a point of being ready to assemble it yet, but I want to get some input before I do.
1) Are regular stock-type replacement lifters going to be fine for a mostly stock rebuild with the 264/264 cam for a daily driver? Or do I need to be looking for something a little better?

2) What kind of pushrods should I be looking to get? Obviously I don't want the whole bent and broken pushrod thing to happen again. Do I need to get the 0.060 shorter ones, custom length ones, heavier duty ones, anything like that? I had my head resurfaced though the shop didn't say how much they took it down. I know the engine had been rebuilt before, and of course it's a '63 head, so I'm assuming it's been milled before. I'm going to try and cc the chambers sometime. I'm also still using the regular non-adjustable rockers.

3) It's looking like I'm going to have a valve spring problem. I got the 302HP springs from Classic Inlines, but the shop is fairly certain that I'm going to run into a coil bind issue. Coil bind is listed for the springs as .480... cam lobe lift is .480. I know a couple people here are running some form of 302 springs with the Clay Smith cams. If they won't work, are there any other springs that will work with this cam and won't require machining on the head to fit?

There's a few pictures of the engine here: http://65ssg.dyndns.org/index.php/2011/06/engine-ps-rear-torque-box/

Thanks!
 
Some thoughts on your questions, Good luck

1. Stock type ones will work, but there are some sold that are not the best quality now (some imports). If you can find older USA made ones (NOS) are the best.
2. Best way to know for sure on the length is to check the lifter preload measurement with an adjustable push rod tool.
3. Are they at the right install height and seat pressure right now? Couple ways to fix look for some different retainers (higher) or machine the head where the springs seat.
 
JackFish: Alrighty. The shop had asked me about the lobe lift, not for the lift at the 1.5 ratio. Seems like a bunch of the stuff I'm seeing online in general differs on whether it's the lobe lift or the lift at the rocker. Just out of curiosity, you had to get some separate machining done to fit the single spring with damper right?

bubba22349: 1) Ok cool. Mine are just the ones that were included in an Enginetech rebuild kit. Probably not the best, but I'm guessing they'll be ok.
2) That's what I was thinking of doing. Doesn't look like they're too expensive. I may have a spare good stock (or maybe 0.060 shorter, don't remember) pushrod sitting around that I can check with too.
3) Pretty sure the shop got them to the right installed height. I don't remember what the number they said was though. No clue on the seat pressure, it was never mentioned to me. I believe they had to cut down a bit of the guide to get the correct retainer to guide clearance.

I'm not going to be changing or buying anything until I get the head on and actually check the clearance. Just wanted to know my options for if they aren't going to work.

Thanks again :)
 
Install height is 1.68 you can check that easy with a machinists rule or dial type caliper.
 
Ya now that you mention it the seats were machined, and had the viton seals installed on the intakes, IIRC.
 
electrorc":32plzyzq said:
Are regular stock-type replacement lifters going to be fine
Click to expand...

Depending on the quality, yes, they should be.

However let me make a suggestion.

If you ever decide to go to full roller rockers you would have to remove the head to replace the Lifters.

So what I would do in your place is to buy the lifters required from mike and put them in now. They will work just fine for now but if you ever want to go to full roller rockers you will be ready.

Just a thought. I know how tight buggets can be. still you might be able to sell the lifters you have on craigs list to recoup some of your investment.
 
I enjoy reading about realistic builds, I believe you'll be very satisfied. Your setup is very similar to this build up and I think the owner was very happy in the end. Enjoy and keep us up-to-date!
 
JackFish: Alrighty, thanks. That'll be an option if I need to, but we'll have to wait and see.

Mav: Are you talking about these? The oiling ones? Is the fact that they're oiling instead of non-oiling going to make a difference while running the stock rockers? Yeah definitely sadly on a major budget, I'm already over with all the floors and stuff :/. I'll have to think about my ultimate plans a little more. I know I wouldn't mind a crossflow head :) Though that'll be way in the future sadly.

sp_alloy_head: Thanks, that's one build I had looked at quite some time ago. He's got the block decked and definitely more in the head than I do though. Mine's just a '63 head with what I believe are the factory '63 size valves--like 1.522"/1.266" or thereabouts.

And I checked the installed height. My calipers are off a few thou in either direction randomly and it was difficult to get a good angle. I didn't measure them all, but I measured 1.648", 1.715", 1.700", 1.680", 1.683", and 1.657". So they're at least close to 1.68 for the most part...
 
electrorc":2c53476r said:
Mav: Are you talking about these?
Click to expand...

Yep that's them. No difference until you install full roller rockers, if you want too, then without them you will have to remove the head to install the new oiling lifters. One way to cut the cost is to sell your new lifters on craiglist. If you get 35 to $40 dollars for them then it reduces the extra cost to $15 to $20 to you. Any way its just a thought and I am well aware of buget constraints and only you can set your priorities. Prepare for a possible upgrade, that you may never do, now or incure extra cost and work down the line.
 
Okay thanks Mav. I'm thinking I'm just going to use the ones that came in the rebuild kit for now--I think it's going to be quite awhile before I get into too many performance mods, and rockers like those would probably be a bit down on the list. Thanks for the suggestion though!

I'm hoping I can get this running by next weekend, like the 23rd. I still need to finish up the floors on the passenger side then do some engine bay work, so we'll see. I've decided to wait on replacing the driver's side floors and other metal until after I drive it for a week or two since I've been getting tired of dealing with the rusty metal and losing some interest in the car.

In preparing for dropping the engine in, I bought lots of parts... radiator, upper and lower rad hoses, thermostat, water pump, clutch alignment tool, trans mount, and a couple other parts. Still need to get a couple more things, probably locally.

More questions:

Can I reuse my old head bolts? It seems like it's kind of a mixed opinion... I know CI sells the ARP ones, but they cost quite a bit. If I can get by without replacing them, that'd be nice. I'll probably look into some washers too since my head's probably been milled a couple of times.

Does anybody know why the drive belt length changed between 65 and 66? The 65 is 33.5" and the 66 is 34". I'm guessing the balancer changed or something? I bought the belt for the 65 so hopefully it'll work. It's a non-ac, non-power steering car. Just the alternator and the fan.

And a beam style torque wrench should be okay for doing the head bolts and everything right? I'd like a dial type or a micrometer click one but I'm afraid the good ones are a little out of my price range, and I'd be a little worried about the calibration on a lower end one... guess I'm mainly looking for people to say yeah they've used the beam one with no problems. I do have a click one, but it's from Harbor Freight so I don't trust it to be right on an engine.

Thanks for all the help everyone... I really appreciate it. :) I'm sure I'll be asking lots more questions when I start putting this thing together.

Edit: AMK makes a head bolt kit. I may pick that up... it's $35 and I can't imagine this build will need ARP head bolts.
 
Did you buy an aluminium one?
Click to expand...
Nope, it's just a copper/brass 3 row one made by Spectra Premium. I was thinking about going aluminum, but didn't want to spend the extra money. Old one was just a little beat up.

Thanks!
 
Okay time for a bit of an update. I have the passenger side floor and associated parts basically in. I still need to do the driver's side, but I won't be doing the rear torque box and I'll lap weld instead of butt weld probably in order to save a little time.

On the engine front, I measured the combustion chamber volume. I'm sure my methods weren't entirely accurate, but the results I got were:
  • Cylinder 1: 46cc
  • Cylinder 3: 44cc, but I messed this one up a bit and spilled. Probably closer to 45-46cc.
  • Cylinder 5: 46cc
  • Cylinder 6: 47cc
So it looks like they're about 46cc overall.
I didn't measure my deck height and it isn't sitting at TDC, so I can't yet. Going off values for deck height of 0.012-0.025", my compression ratio will be around 9.5-9.8:1. I have a Victor head gasket, so 0.044" compressed thickness. I know this is a little higher than normally recommended here for pump gas, but should it be okay? If I looked at everything correctly, the dynamic compression should be around 7.8-7.9:1. That's in the "Supreme 89-91" according to the CI tech page.

Next, I put the engine partially together while still sitting in the garage to get a feel for whether things would work or not. I used my old Fel-Pro head gasket and a couple of the Enginetech lifters soaked in oil. I partially bolted the head on, put old pushrods in, and bolted the rocker assembly on. I checked a cylinder that had both valves mostly, though not completely open.
Turns out I do in fact have coil bind. The top two coils are touching and the lower two coils are as well. I'm over budget by quite a bit now, so I need to figure out how to fix this for fairly cheap. Guess I should have checked that out sooner. :/ Here's a few pics: http://65ssg.dyndns.org/index.php/2011/08/valve-spring-coil-bind/
Edit: Is this actually coil bind? Since not all of the coils are touching, the spring should still be able to compress more. Yet it seems to me that even if it doesn't result in no further movement, that having any of the coils get to a point where they are touching can cause damage. Is my thinking wrong here or is there a slim chance I'm ok?
Edit again: Okay, did some more reading. One of the things that affects a spring rate is the number of active turns, which are basically the turns that aren't touching anything else. So if I have coils touching on top and bottom, that will reduce the number of active turns, from my understanding. The spring rate is inversely proportional to the number of active turns, so as the number of active turns goes down, the spring rate goes up. So yeah, guess I'm in the market for new springs.

I have basically 2 weeks to finish it... should be interesting.

Oh and I did decide to upgrade the lifters. I figured that between MPG's lifter trouble and the trouble I had with my last engine it'd be good insurance. I went with the regular non-oiling ones though--by the time I would swap to the other rockers, I'd probably be replacing the cam and doing head work and what not anyway. I just haven't gotten them yet.
 
1. All springs are (shimmed) to the right install height right, if not swap the shim thickness until they are. Or if it's close you can swap retainers and locks to other valves last you also can mach. the spring seat on the head.

2. Valve spring coils are going to touch (stack) as they compress starting at top and bottom and moving to center as long as you have the min. clearance there in center you should be good.
 
Thanks bubba.
1) If I remember right, the shop machined the seats in order to gain more retainer to valve seal clearance and to get the correct installed height.
2) Cool. So I want the total clearance to be at least 0.060, correct? If I have 0.025, 0.055, and something else, I should be good then. I'll definitely double check once the engine is in the car and I can check all of them.
 
2) Cool. So I want the total clearance to be at least 0.060, correct?
Click to expand...

(y) Right

If I have 0.025, 0.055, and something else, I should be good then. If I have 0.025, 0.055, and something else, I should be good then. 'll definitely double check once the engine is in the car and I can check all of them.
Click to expand...

Yes :unsure: But one last thing the lifters may still need to pump up if they are Hyd. type so check to see if the plunger is at top of the travel or add to your clearance min. too.
 
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