Extremely cold-natured 200 - fuel issue or something else?

Falcon64

New member
Here's the setup - 200 with a reman Holley 1946 carb. for a '78 Fairmont application, C4 trans.

This engine is extremely cold-natured if it has sat over night or longer. It takes quite a few cranks to get the engine to start. (I know that the fuel is either boiling out of the bowl or draining back past the pump or, most likely, a combination of both.) I have to pump the accelerator while it's cranking to get it to start, also (again, completely drained carb). When it does start, I have to keep tapping/feathering the accelerator to keep it running. During this "accelerator tapping process," which usually lasts about 15 seconds, I have to keep the RPMs up, or else it will die.

After revving it up by tapping the accelerator as described above, it will idle on its own perfectly - I mean, engine is running as smooth as glass. However, as soon as I put it in gear, it will instantly lug down and die unless I start feathering the accelerator again. If I am able to manage to keep it running after putting it in gear, it is very short lived if I give it any more gas. It will surely lug down if I try to drive off as you normally would. So.... I have 2 options: let it sit at idle for about 5 minutes to warm up or put it in park and rev it up for 30-45 seconds to quickly warm it up. After all that, it runs without any issues.

I know that fuel pump failure is common with the aftermarket pumps for these engines. That's why my first instinct was to convert to an electric pump so that I could always insure that the carb bowl would be full when I start to crank the engine. That would take care of that issue. But it still leaves the lugging down issue when it's in gear at first. What would be causing this? Fuel-related to the carb bowl maybe not having enough fuel yet (but it will let me rev it up in neutral with no problem...) or is it something transmission-related? Like I said, once it's warm, it performs flawlessly.

What do you think?
 
Did you set the choke plate to have a 1/16th open gap when closed? Dunno if that might help. Also, how are the fuel filters? I've heard too many -like one before the pump and one at the carb might be a bad thing... I'd like confirmation on that idea though.
 
Actually, that sounds pretty normal for an old carbureted car with points ignition in cold weather. Crank, crank, crank, Fire!....Keep it running by playing with throttle, wait until warm before driving! Most of us have forgotten the "good 'ol days" when you had to sit in a cold car, fiddling with the throttle, and waiting for it to get warm enough to idle on its own. Then waiting longer before it would drive without stalling. Not to mention the art of using a manual choke!

With powerful ECUs managing fuel, ignition, idle speed, idle air, transmission shifts, traction.......we now just hop in, fire it up, and drive away.
 
Yes, the electric choke was set up per the manual that covers the 1946 carb. The wire was connected to the proper lug on the back of the alternator.

I did fail to mention earlier that this engine has a MSD electronic ignition that feeds a Pertronix module in a '68-up (non-Loadomatic) distributor.

I've never encountered any carbed engine that would lug down and die like this after starting. The carbed 258 inline 6 in my Jeep will fire off instantly and let you drive away instantly without waiting to warm up. I know years ago when I first got the car (and it had the old 1100 and Fordomatic trans), this problem didn't exist.

The excessive cranking (and it is quite a bit more than normal for your typical carbed engine) I can deal with and remedy with an electric fuel pump. It's the lugging down when put in gear that's bugging me and has me stumped.
 
I typically have to pump the gas before and during starting for initial start up of the day, and it doesn't seem to matter what season it is.
The 1946 has a high speed idle cam that's adjusted with a screw on the driver side, and it sounds like yours is not kicking in.
They are finicky little bastards, and I need to pull my carb off and do some adjusting.
It should set up at oh maybe 1800 rpm or so which should be enough to keep a cold engine running when shifting. Mine is totally messed up at the moment. It decides to come on after I've been driving around for a bit. I have to stop and push the little cam back off it's setting. Do you have the pipe that goes from the exhaust manifold to the choke installed?
 
Is your high idle functional? If it drops to regular idle straight away, it will die. If you keep pumping it after it has once started, that will release the high idle and it will drop out.
 
The high idle can works properly and moves freely. When the cam is in the high idle position with the high idle set around 2000 rpm, the engine will only run a few seconds unless I pump the accelerator. As long as I'm pumping it to keep the RPMs up, it stays running. It's like it needs that shot of gas that pumping it gives until a certain point (?) when the carb's idle circuit starts working like it should.

This carb has no hot air tube. It is a full electric choke model.

I went out today and started it after it had been sitting for a week. It took 20 seconds of cranking and pumping the accelerator every now and then for it to start! That's definitely not normal. Then, with the high idle on (I double checked), it chugged and sputtered like it was only running on a few cylinders. It wasn't until I pumped the accelerator and revved it pretty high that everything started working as it should. After that, the high idle worked and idled smoothly. I went up and manually flipped the cam to shut off the high idle to test it. Idled smooth as glass. Still lugged down when I put it in drive and have it gas. I'm stumped.
 
The electric choke still needs to have the hot air stove pipe hooked up, it will never work correctly without it.
 
bubba22349":37y31scp said:
The electric choke still needs to have the hot air stove pipe hooked up, it will never work correctly without it.

There is no connection for a hot air tube. Not all 1946 carbs had the combo of hot air and electric choke. This is an electric-only model.
 
I wonder if you are simply losing fuel somehow. It sounds like it starves until the bowl is full again. Cracked rubber hose from fuel line to carb? Leak in the bowl? Maybe fuel siphoning back down the fuel line? Clearly, if you get enough gas, it runs fine.
 
ludwig":2t5mu3qc said:
I wonder if you are simply losing fuel somehow. It sounds like it starves until the bowl is full again. Cracked rubber hose from fuel line to carb? Leak in the bowl? Maybe fuel siphoning back down the fuel line? Clearly, if you get enough gas, it runs fine.

I agree. The fuel line from the pump to the carb is good. It may be that the pump just isn't filling the bowl up fast enough when the engine is started (and the carb bowl is dry). Before I cranked it today, I removed the air cleaner and looked down the carb as I worked the linkage by hand. Only 1 good squirt of fuel came out. Every other pump of the linkage only produced an audible puff of air in the carb, so the fuel bowl is definitely dry at start-up.
 
MustangSix":1rnq3fgk said:
Actually, that sounds pretty normal for an old carbureted car with points ignition in cold weather. Crank, crank, crank, Fire!....Keep it running by playing with throttle, wait until warm before driving! Most of us have forgotten the "good 'ol days" when you had to sit in a cold car, fiddling with the throttle, and waiting for it to get warm enough to idle on its own. Then waiting longer before it would drive without stalling. Not to mention the art of using a manual choke!

With powerful ECUs managing fuel, ignition, idle speed, idle air, transmission shifts, traction.......we now just hop in, fire it up, and drive away.
Strong agreement with this statement.

Minor wonder if there is an issue in the fuel pump, from what I remember these pumps will pump until it reaches a set pressure then a bypass opens up so it doesn't pump excess pressure into the fuel bowl.
 
Didn't the fuel pump have a rubber membrane in there? Or was that just the VW pumps. At this point, it seems that the fuel line is not staying full.
 
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