need 144 and holley 1bbl help, thanks

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Ive been piddlin on a 144 for a guy.
He had a guy replace the shortblock. Then he gets it back, has me look at it, cause the engine now vibrated, rattled and idled horrible.
I realized the rockers were too noisy, sure enough, im not sure they attempted to set them. So I did, it smoothed out alot and no more valve train noise, but the vibration was still there, just not as bad.
Then, I did a compression test cold, all were 130psi, except the last cylinder, it was around 100 or so, I put oil in the cylinder and the psi greatly increased. I figure while thats not a good psi and it needs a machinists touch, I wouldnt think it would cause it to vibrate like it does, so I continued, trying to get it to run for the guy, for a little while. I physically verified tdc matched the crank mark to timing marks, think i aimed for 12 btdc based on info i found online, and in doing so, noticed both motor mounts didnt look right, and were completely broke, the dipstick that put the engine in, put a 1/2" piece of rubber under the bottom of the mounts to "shim" the engine up where it should be. But considering the rubber was completely separately on both mounts, the engine was literally held down by gravity, when I unbolted the mount from the block, the mounts fell to the ground in two pieces, both sides were like that.
Once motor mounts were replaced the engine smoothed out even further, id hoped that would end the ordeal but still vibrates more than it should.
I removed the fan belt, thinking the fan might be off balance but nothing changed.
So I notice it smooths out with a little throttle, at this point, im thinking idle rpm too low, so Im thinking see if the idle needs adjusting at the carb linkage, so I follow the linkage to the carb side facing the firewall, see a bolt that would appear to adjust the idle speed but theres nothing above it, ive not dealt with a holley 1bbl, and im having little luck finding an exploded view that looks like the carb im dealing with, but the similar carbs I have seen, show a quarter circle cam that the idle speed nut/screw is sdjusted against, this carb has nothing there.

I was hoping someone here may have a photo, of the carburetor, the side that faces the firewall, link or something that I could look at to see if im missing parts or which parts, the tag on this carb reads C2DE-M A2FC.


Ive searched, will continue to search, but having little luck, this carb is a manual choke with distributor vac control, supposedly off a 62 falcon 144.

Im also hearing what sounds like a miss out the tailpipe. Distributor appears newer, but I do plan on changing points or talking him into doing a pertronix conversion.



Any help appreciated, I have nothing to gain $$$$ wise, im just helping a guy out.

 

[bubba22349]

Here is a link that has one picture of linkage that maybe of some help. As far as the firewall though there is lever with a solid rod linkage connected that goes to the engines bell crank. Good luck

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... 937/page-4

 

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Thanks.

I meant to say, I need a photo of the actual carburetor, holley C2DE-M, a photo of the carb side that faces the firewall.
Im thinking some parts are missing on the carburetor itself, if I could compare to a known good one I could narrow it down.

 

[bubba22349]

Ok then here is a picture of the Holley 1904 carb on my 1954 Customline in the first link, the linkage should be very semular to the Holley 1904's used on the early Falcon engines. The carb number that you have though is for a Holley 1909, the Second through forth links below have pictures of all the 1909 carb parts and showing its linkage. Dose yours still have the dash pot and bracket on it? Good luck

Holley 1904 carb
http://s54.photobucket.com/user/bubba22 ... a.jpg.html?

Holley 1909 carb pictures shows linkage.
http://www.carburetormanuals.com/produc ... CM004.html

Holley 1909 carb exploded view
http://www.carburetorfactory.com/expvw12.html
http://www.tpocr.com/1909carb.html

 

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Seems the one im dealing with is the 1909.
In your tpocr link, the bottom throttle lever assembly shown resembles the one im working on. Having the vertical throttle stop, were the other has a horizontal throttle stop and horizontal fast idle screw.
My question, is the throttle stop shown in the bottom throttle lever assembly, it should make contact with what?
Seems the photograph, bottom left, is of a 1909 with the electric choke (using throttle sssembly at the top, in tpocr link) so im unable to compare that to my manual choke carb and make sense of it.
I do know on the carb im working with, the throttle stop screw makes contact with nothing, theres nothing around it to make contact with. Which im thinking there should be, as that would control idle rpm correct?

This carb does have dashpot assembly and bracket.

Appreciate your time and assistance

 

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Try to add photos of the throttle stop, maybe someone can tell me if somethings missing. Thanks

 

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More I look at this thing, seems someone made a bracket for the choke but removed the fadt idle cam in the process.
wonder why?
Im thinkjng a person could do away with the dashpot and run an hei distributor?

 

[bubba22349]

From your pictures it looks like it was originally an Auto choke carb that they converted over to a manual choke or else they had to repair it with that home made choke part. Looks to have all the linkages that it needs to be operable though. Were you able to get the idle RPM set on the throttle stop correctly? The dash pot is there to slow the throttle from closing to quickly on some combs like with an Auto trans this could cause the engine to stall, is it still in working condition? Good luck

 

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Not yet, as you can see in the photo, the idle screw has nothing to adjust agsinst. I could turn the dash pot inward to adjust idle but dont think that would be the right way. Im honestly not familiar with the dashpot and how it relates to idld rpm adjustment, ive only used edelbrock/carter or holleys without one.
Based on the exploded view, the vertical idle screw linkage aka manual choke, adjusts against the fast idle cam, correct? Which appears to be like the one I have.
I wont be able to adjust idle rpm/ screw until I find one. Im sure I could make a stop for the idle screw, but id like to put it back to original if I can.

I think the automatic choke carbs, based on the exploded view, use a horizontal idle screw (linkage).

Im just trying to make sense of it, first 1909 ive dealt with.


Your correct, I said dash pot earlier, when I meant get rid of the spark control, go hei but that all depends on the owner.
I only get down that way once a week or so, and then time to tinker is limited.

 

[bubba22349]

I spoke to soon you are right it dose look like you are missing the fast idle cam that the throttle adjusting screw needs to push against to set your idle RPM (see below link showing picture of stock 1962 Holley 1909 for a manual transmission and with all the manual choke linkage). If you can't find the missing parts you could maybe make a bracket mounting off the carbs two top cover screws that would give the adjustment screw something to push against for idle RPM but it still won't have the fast idle when the choke is on. Yes you could use the dash pot to adjust the idle RPM it's only real function is to slightly slow down the closing of the throstle blade to keep the engine from stalling like when coming to a stop.

Yes for sure if you don't need to keep the old LOD distributor for originality swap it out for a better unit. On the HEI distributor it takes a special built unit on the 144 and some early 170's because of the smaller oil pump drive used in those early engines. Or you can open up your choices by adapting a later 200 oil pump with the larger oil pump drive. Going to a better distributor HEI or at least one that has centrifugal advance you could then just ditch that old Holley for a later model Autolite or Carter carb and it would be well worth the effort. You can also go with a 1969 up 170/200 points type distributor with a pertronix or you can use a Mopar control box for a low budget electronic setup with the stock points as the trigger. My personal favorite is to use a DSII distributor when ever possible. Good luck

Holley 1909 stick trans and a manual choke shows choke linkage
http://www.championcarburetor.com/1962- ... 10715.html

 

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Thanks for the assistance bubba, im thinking the rest if this site is either asleep or unfamiliar with the 1909.

im gonna try to order a fast idle cam, and spring, im thinking the spring will end up being hard to find, likely end up being a universal piece I make fit.

I keep referring to the engine as a 144, to keep things simple, for my carb questions but its actually supposed to be a 144 head/carb on a 200 shortblock. So that will open up the door for distributor options.

ive done the HEI conversion on v8 duraspark II distributors in the past, was very happy with it over the stock coil duraspark ign box.

I noticed the hei distributors are available and more clean looking than the HEI duraspark conversion.
Also know the petronix work well on these older distributors. Just depends on what the owner wants done.

Your mention of distributors, has me thinking, cause the one on this engine looks new, and probably be a good idea, to figure out what it is and/or whats been done to the ignition setup.

 

[bubba22349]

Thanks for the assistance bubba, im thinking the rest if this site is either asleep or unfamiliar with the 1909.


(I don't think very many people use the Holley 1904, 1908, or 1909's except for some of the old timers and unless you need it for the SCV because you still have an old LOD distributor, there are some carbs from the latter 60's and up.)


im gonna try to order a fast idle cam, and spring, im thinking the spring will end up being hard to find, likely end up being a universal piece I make fit.

I keep referring to the engine as a 144, to keep things simple, for my carb questions but its actually supposed to be a 144 head/carb on a 200 shortblock. So that will open up the door for distributor options.


(Well that is a good deal havering a 200 short block to work with, but I have been assuming more of a stock 144 engine. Interesting combo the 144 heads going to add some more compression to the 200. Stock the 144 head did have smaller valves and ports though. Wonder what else they did too it? Have you looked at what type distributor it has now? Has it run long enough to get a good plug reading? If it's a LOD then dump that as soon as you can and if it's a later 1968 and up points type hooked up to the Holley thats not going to work right. How much timing dose it have now? You could try disconnecting the vacuum line to distributor and adding more timing.)


ive done the HEI conversion on v8 duraspark II distributors in the past, was very happy with it over the stock coil duraspark ign box.

I noticed the hei distributors are available and more clean looking than the HEI duraspark conversion.
Also know the petronix work well on these older distributors. Just depends on what the owner wants done.

Your mention of distributors, has me thinking, cause the one on this engine looks new, and probably be a good idea, to figure out what it is and/or whats been done to the ignition setup.

Yep that's the first thing to check and find out what distributor your working with you never know what combo of parts got used in a Hybrid. So many people don't understand how the old Ford LOD system works, and thinking they can hookup a newer better distributor to the old carbs SCV, it just won't work right. You can convert the old carbs to ported vacuum for the later distributors but it takes a little bit of work. Or plug the SCV port and go with manifold vacum to the new style distributor, it can work when tuned right but I prefer to use ported vacum for a street car if possible. Most of the time theses old carbs get ditched along with the old LOD distributor for the later model parts and a much better running system. Another though is that that Holley may be a little small for a 200. My combo for MPG is an Autolite 1101 with a DuraSparkII, or for a little more performance a Carter YF or RBS and a DSII, Good luck

 

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Other day I connected a vac gauge to see what was happening at the spark control, it seemed different than what I would expect, figured something would have to be done different to run a newer distributor. What I dont know, ill cross that bridge when I get there, if I get there.
I havent had a chance to get to the car, im waiting on the carb parts and rebuild kit.
once I get it rebuilt and the choke/throttle stop corrected, ill move focus to the distributor.
the old engine does fire right up and idle if you give it a little throttle at just the right time. So there is hope.

I have a feeling even if this car was running perfect, it would likely not get driven much, if ever, so thats why id like to use the existing parts and hesitant to suggest the owner buy a different carburetor or distributor, those lil carburetors are pricey, from what I seen.