So, I realize this is one of those "what if" posts... and generally I find those amazingly lame. However, Matt previously posted his gripe about the cost of hopping up his six and I came down on him fairly hard. That made me think, and when I started thinking about it - I started drawing the conclusion that the ford six we all know and love actually stacks up pretty well against the competition. At least, if you are in a position with a little knowledge and a willingness to learn.
The constant comparison we get with these motors is that, for the money spent, we could have built a V8 that made much more power. Now, I think that arguement is at first glance true. If you have a stock 200 into which you have invested 1k in bolt ons and minor modifications, you are going to be slower than your friend who has spent the same on his 302. However, I think once you start talking about a ground up build - the table starts to become a little more even. Keep in mind, I am sitting on my couch waiting for the old lady to get out of class - so all prices are approximate and if I got somethig wrong - cut me a little slack.
Now, I am/was a chevy guy - and like all chevy guys the only motor I have a wealth of experience with is the beloved small block. I am going to use that for comparison instead of the ford equivilent because frankly, I know the SBC better and what it takes to make it go. So that being said, here is my theological comparison:
If you assume you start with a good rebuildable factory block from both camps, you can negate the relative costs. Consider it starting from scratch.
The costs of basic machine work on the two blocks will be similar, so you can call that even as well. For 800$ you should be able to get either block ready to assemble with confidence that everything is strait and true.
So, with any successful motor project, you need to start with a goal. For the purposes of this exercise Ill set the goal of a true 300 HP at the wheels. In one of these light unibodys we are all working with, properly geared and driven, that can put you into the deep 13's or high 12's. I consider that a car you can be proud to brag about it's performance.
On either engine, you aren't going to make any real power without and head upgrade. For a SBC, a pair of heads like sportsmans, dart's or similar will cost you about 800$ ready to run. I've done this before and it puts you right on target for 300 wheel hp. So V8 head price, 800.
On our six, the only real option we can consider for this comparison is the much anticipated head from Mike. The price tag here is higher, at approx 1500 IIRC. Flow numbers and anticipated performance are similar to the SBC heads listed above, so advantage V8.
Adding an aftermarket camshaft to either engine is basically a wash. figure 200$ for the cam, lifters, pushrods and related crap you need to buy to make it work. So we can consider this section a push.
That also goes for all your basic rebuild components. Timing chain, oil pump, bearings, rings, etc - basically even. The one big difference as I see it is pistons. With a SBC, you can get away with cheap Hypo's at that power level. For what we want to do with this six, we are probably going to need forged. As I recall from various posts, we can get a set of forged pistons made in our designed CR for about 600$. Compare that to about 100$ for a set of hypo's for the SBC... again advantage V8.
The rest of your rotating assembly is a question. With the six, our stock components are plenty good enough (except adding rod and main studs, but the V8 needs those too). On the V8, the factory rods may be fine, but might need a little work. I will go ahead and just call this a wash and re-use the factory crank & rods on both sides of the fence.
So at this point, we have about 1100$ more into our six than we do into our eight. The eight is also going to make more power, So we've got to do something.
So we force the issue. Induction wise. This is where being saavy as well as handy will make the difference between breaking even, or not.
First we need to finish the 8. We have got to get an intake, carb, and headers as well as ignition. 400 for a decent holley it seems these days. 200 for an intake and if you say this is going in a equivilent chassis, about 300 for a quality set of headers. Put up 200 for an MSD box and another 200 ins misc igntion parts (dist rebuild, wires, coil). Oh yeah, lets get a decent fuel pump too. $50. That roughly completes our 300 hp street V8 for a grand total of... $3500 (I made some approximations for the stuff I didn't list numbers for). That's not bad, and less than a lot of ricers spend on body kits.
So with our six, we are sans intake, exhaust, ignition and fuel delivery. Lets go with mikes intake for simplicity, and set it up for MPFI. Scary, I know, but you gotta work to make this happen. I think Mike was saying about 300 for the intake and a clever person like myself could setup a fuel rail and a set of injectors for another 150 or so. Use a tempo TB dry, you can get one of those basically free. 450 for A/F delivery. For a distributor, I bought a rebuilt DSII for 35 bucks. If we use megasquirt and are competent enough to use it, that 35 + aother 40 for good wires and 40 for a coil gives us a complete ignition system for 110$.
Oh yeah, the megasquirt. I've never played with megasquirt before but I have built fuel injection systems out of far less capable components. I have no fear of megasquirt integration and neither should you. If you are electronically handy, doing EVERYTHING to set a car up for MPFI Efi should come in under 1000$. And that's with new parts (Pump, Fuel Tank, injectors, megasquirt hardware, etc).
So that puts our total for air fuel and spark delivery at 1100$ compared to the carby V8's 1050. Close enough for government work.
Now exhaust for our little six. We are going turbo because we are cheaters, so this is where your welding abilities come into play. J pipe turbo manifold... 50$. (someone has to pay for the argon and rod).
Brand new off the shelf turbo. 600$. You can drop this a lot by being handy and ebay saavy... but thats not what this is about. New parts only.
No intercooler on this project. We can't afford it. So misc. crap to fabricate your plumbing from turbo to TB... 50$.
BOV? - 100$. That completes our turbo conversion at 800$. Yes, it's do-able.
Now comes the hard part. You've got a AL headed, heavily cammed, Turbocharged fuel injected six. You've got to tune it to make the power you need. The Carbie V8 guy can basically follow the old addage "more fuel more timing" and get it running 90%. You've got to actually understand what is going on with this much more complicated system we have built to get all the power there is to get out of it. But you can. I have, so it can't be that hard.
Total Cost to build this six? If I can add properly (which is up for debate) I get $5560. That's Vs. the 3500 our V8 friend spent. So we are 2k over budget when it comes to dollar for dollar vs. performance.
But you know what? At the end of the day our system is a whole hell of a lot cooler. Also I would speculate that the system we just decribed could make a whole hell of a lot more power than we are limiting it to. You just need to turn up the boost (and hold th emotor together).
So, the girl is knockin and im gonna cut this short.. but, thoughts?
The constant comparison we get with these motors is that, for the money spent, we could have built a V8 that made much more power. Now, I think that arguement is at first glance true. If you have a stock 200 into which you have invested 1k in bolt ons and minor modifications, you are going to be slower than your friend who has spent the same on his 302. However, I think once you start talking about a ground up build - the table starts to become a little more even. Keep in mind, I am sitting on my couch waiting for the old lady to get out of class - so all prices are approximate and if I got somethig wrong - cut me a little slack.
Now, I am/was a chevy guy - and like all chevy guys the only motor I have a wealth of experience with is the beloved small block. I am going to use that for comparison instead of the ford equivilent because frankly, I know the SBC better and what it takes to make it go. So that being said, here is my theological comparison:
If you assume you start with a good rebuildable factory block from both camps, you can negate the relative costs. Consider it starting from scratch.
The costs of basic machine work on the two blocks will be similar, so you can call that even as well. For 800$ you should be able to get either block ready to assemble with confidence that everything is strait and true.
So, with any successful motor project, you need to start with a goal. For the purposes of this exercise Ill set the goal of a true 300 HP at the wheels. In one of these light unibodys we are all working with, properly geared and driven, that can put you into the deep 13's or high 12's. I consider that a car you can be proud to brag about it's performance.
On either engine, you aren't going to make any real power without and head upgrade. For a SBC, a pair of heads like sportsmans, dart's or similar will cost you about 800$ ready to run. I've done this before and it puts you right on target for 300 wheel hp. So V8 head price, 800.
On our six, the only real option we can consider for this comparison is the much anticipated head from Mike. The price tag here is higher, at approx 1500 IIRC. Flow numbers and anticipated performance are similar to the SBC heads listed above, so advantage V8.
Adding an aftermarket camshaft to either engine is basically a wash. figure 200$ for the cam, lifters, pushrods and related crap you need to buy to make it work. So we can consider this section a push.
That also goes for all your basic rebuild components. Timing chain, oil pump, bearings, rings, etc - basically even. The one big difference as I see it is pistons. With a SBC, you can get away with cheap Hypo's at that power level. For what we want to do with this six, we are probably going to need forged. As I recall from various posts, we can get a set of forged pistons made in our designed CR for about 600$. Compare that to about 100$ for a set of hypo's for the SBC... again advantage V8.
The rest of your rotating assembly is a question. With the six, our stock components are plenty good enough (except adding rod and main studs, but the V8 needs those too). On the V8, the factory rods may be fine, but might need a little work. I will go ahead and just call this a wash and re-use the factory crank & rods on both sides of the fence.
So at this point, we have about 1100$ more into our six than we do into our eight. The eight is also going to make more power, So we've got to do something.
So we force the issue. Induction wise. This is where being saavy as well as handy will make the difference between breaking even, or not.
First we need to finish the 8. We have got to get an intake, carb, and headers as well as ignition. 400 for a decent holley it seems these days. 200 for an intake and if you say this is going in a equivilent chassis, about 300 for a quality set of headers. Put up 200 for an MSD box and another 200 ins misc igntion parts (dist rebuild, wires, coil). Oh yeah, lets get a decent fuel pump too. $50. That roughly completes our 300 hp street V8 for a grand total of... $3500 (I made some approximations for the stuff I didn't list numbers for). That's not bad, and less than a lot of ricers spend on body kits.
So with our six, we are sans intake, exhaust, ignition and fuel delivery. Lets go with mikes intake for simplicity, and set it up for MPFI. Scary, I know, but you gotta work to make this happen. I think Mike was saying about 300 for the intake and a clever person like myself could setup a fuel rail and a set of injectors for another 150 or so. Use a tempo TB dry, you can get one of those basically free. 450 for A/F delivery. For a distributor, I bought a rebuilt DSII for 35 bucks. If we use megasquirt and are competent enough to use it, that 35 + aother 40 for good wires and 40 for a coil gives us a complete ignition system for 110$.
Oh yeah, the megasquirt. I've never played with megasquirt before but I have built fuel injection systems out of far less capable components. I have no fear of megasquirt integration and neither should you. If you are electronically handy, doing EVERYTHING to set a car up for MPFI Efi should come in under 1000$. And that's with new parts (Pump, Fuel Tank, injectors, megasquirt hardware, etc).
So that puts our total for air fuel and spark delivery at 1100$ compared to the carby V8's 1050. Close enough for government work.
Now exhaust for our little six. We are going turbo because we are cheaters, so this is where your welding abilities come into play. J pipe turbo manifold... 50$. (someone has to pay for the argon and rod).
Brand new off the shelf turbo. 600$. You can drop this a lot by being handy and ebay saavy... but thats not what this is about. New parts only.
No intercooler on this project. We can't afford it. So misc. crap to fabricate your plumbing from turbo to TB... 50$.
BOV? - 100$. That completes our turbo conversion at 800$. Yes, it's do-able.
Now comes the hard part. You've got a AL headed, heavily cammed, Turbocharged fuel injected six. You've got to tune it to make the power you need. The Carbie V8 guy can basically follow the old addage "more fuel more timing" and get it running 90%. You've got to actually understand what is going on with this much more complicated system we have built to get all the power there is to get out of it. But you can. I have, so it can't be that hard.
Total Cost to build this six? If I can add properly (which is up for debate) I get $5560. That's Vs. the 3500 our V8 friend spent. So we are 2k over budget when it comes to dollar for dollar vs. performance.
But you know what? At the end of the day our system is a whole hell of a lot cooler. Also I would speculate that the system we just decribed could make a whole hell of a lot more power than we are limiting it to. You just need to turn up the boost (and hold th emotor together).
So, the girl is knockin and im gonna cut this short.. but, thoughts?
