All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes
1966Mustang

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
Subscriber
  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...
docs.google.com

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
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guhfluh said:
This may be too late or may not apply for expense or specific application reasons, but the above response is incorrect.

OEMs have been using blow off valves integral to the compressor housing for around 2 decades and Borg Warner EFR series for around a decade. Arguments have been made the blow off valve should be on the hotside of the intercooler, closer to the turbo.

Most internal gate actuators are adjustable via preload. Spring changing is an option on higher end aftermarket actuators. The aftermarket has come out with dual port, adjustable internal gate actuators. There are adjustable dual port internal gate actuators available specifically for the BW EFR line as well as others.

External gates do not provide adjustable boost control any differently than a comparable internal gate.
Click to expand...
That's all true but I was talking about having control on the fly which involves a two port actuator or wastegate.
I was also comparing active control using dual port versus single port with "Bleed Off" control in which case an external dual port is much safer than a internal single port.

Concerning BOVs I should have worded that statement differently and not used the word "always"
However I prefer the wastegate close to the throttle body when using an intercooler and a manual transmission is order to keep the air mass flowing in the right direction between shifts.
If you have the BOV right after the turbocharger, when the TB closes and the BOV opens the pressure in the intercooler and the pipe between the intercooler and TB can reverse the flow which will cause additional lag after a shift.

This build is using the BW Airwerks turbocharger with an external dual port wastegate.
The wastegate listed above is on the large side. It doesn't have to be larger than 38 to 40 mm
 
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1966Mustang said:
Ok, thinking about Camshafts today - I did chat with Comp Cams and they had a lot of questions I didn't have data for.

Evidently this was not enough:
Solid-Lifter Cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, drivable below 3500.

They wanted all sorts of personally identifiable information! Anyway, I answered what I could and then they said - Call back, ask for Dallas...

I haven't called Dallas yet.

Well this would be pretty cool... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camless_piston_engine
Click to expand...
Have you tried contacting Schneider Cams yet? http://schneidercams.com/
 
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You can talk to either one at Schneider

Sales / General Tech: Jerry Cantrell
Sales / Engineering: Kevin Cantrell

They should want things like head flow at several valve lift points for both the intake and exhaust ports (see post below) and power band rpm and the fact that it is being turbocharged.
Engine bore and stroke and maybe compression ratio.

Don't worry about stating "drivability below 3500". Not their problem.
You want power from 3500 to 7000 rpm.
I'm expecting a .050" intake duration around 236 to 238 degrees with a 114 degree LSA.
The exhaust duration may be around 4 degrees less.

And don't forget that we want this engine good for 7500 rpm so the cam needs to be a mechanical lifter cam

On a different subject:
Change the wastegate size from a 60 mm to 38 mm
 
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Cylinder Head Flow Ratings​

Valve Lift
in/exh		all in cfm
IntakeType.100.200.300.400.500.600
Small Log*Stock41 / 3668 / 6879 / 8990 / 9899 / 103101 / 105
Small LogModified47 / 4287 / 6997 / 91110 / 101114 / 108116 / 110
Large LogStock45 / 4188 / 55108 / 74119 / 93124 / 103127 / 105
Large LogModified52 / 4494 / 72126 / 92140 / 109145 / 122146 / 129
250-2VStock53 / 4299 / 58127 / 76155 / 94156 / 102157 / 105
250-2VPorted54 / 45105 / 76135 / 92163 / 107172 / 119176 / 126
CI AlumStock52 / 40101 / 79143 / 111180 / 144201 / 164210 / 174
CI AlumPorted55 / 44106 / 87159 / 122197 / 159223 / 179231 / 184
* The Stock Small Log Intake numbers are not actual figures, they are estimated.
 
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Paul, I too thought that the 60 was to large..My old build and new build is a 38mm ..But I will not be using a quick boost housing or a wife tune..Maybe the next size up if priority flow can not be fitted easily?
 
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drag-200stang said:
Paul, I too thought that the 60 was to large..My old build and new build is a 38mm ..But I will not be using a quick boost housing or a wife tune..Maybe the next size up if priority flow can not be fitted easily?
Click to expand...
As you may know, the higher the boost level you want to regulate at, the smaller the wastegate port size is needed.
That's because you dump less exhaust to get higher boost.
Also If you go to a larger turbine housing with a higher A/R that means you intend to run more exhaust through the turbine and less through the wastegate.

Would you post or PM me about your new build.
I would like to see what you are doing
Thanks
 
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1966Mustang said:
Found this place and their capabilities interesting, so I emailed them about developing a equal length header and kitting.
www.full-race.com

Full-Race Twin Scroll Prototype Analysis • Full Race

Mustang-EcoBoost-Drivetrain Ford EPD/CFD Prototype Analysis Since 2003, utilizing Twin Scroll turbo systems for high-performance track racing is how
www.full-race.com www.full-race.com
Click to expand...
Well if they are williing to di it. I am sure you might be able to get some other people in so it won't be a one off item. I would be interested in one for a future project down the road.
 
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65coupei6 said:
so it won't be a one off item
Click to expand...
Other than building this engine and hitting the HP goal - having an off-the-shelf equal length turbo header solution is my other goal. We could identify some members closest to Full Race in Phoenix, AZ that have a CI/VI Head 200 Mustang. Hopefully they would be willing to drop their car off to get measured and fitted.
 
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Update:
Last week, I called the machinist nearest me and he does not have a honing plate for this engine. Look for another machinist, or look for a honing plate? Going to call one up in Richmond, VA (about 100 miles from me).

Since I don't have the AL Head yet or rods or piston or cam in my hand... What block/crank work can be done?

Can the crank be balanced and installed without the rods at this time?

Are we looking for minimum cleanup on head/cylinder bores, or looking for a diameter/height?

Work to be done:
Block:
  1. Clean/tank block
  2. Make block clyinder head face flat
  3. Clean up cylinder bores
  4. Align hone main
  5. Thread front oil galley for plug
  6. Evaluate resizing oil return holes
  7. Install ARP Main journal bolts
  8. Install Main bearings
Crank:
  1. Balance Crank
  2. Resize rod journals to 2.100"
  3. Install crank
Things I've been cleaning up:
  1. Deflash/Smooth Clean up block and crank
  2. Clean up timing cover
  3. Clean up oil pan
  4. Oil Pump (It's got an aluminum housing, with a cast cap...)

Thanks,

Perry
 
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The crank can be balanced without the rods and pistons being present. They are balanced separately. Make sure to take your harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate as well as pressure plate if its straight shift.

Usually when regrinding the journals to a custom size like that, the machine shop likes to torque the rod bearings in the new rods and grind each rod journal specifically to each rod. Same thing for finish honing the block, they like to mic each piston and hone each cylinder to a specific piston and mark them for the cylinders they will go in, if there is any variation in them.
 
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Hrm... I have the stock harmonic balancer. I'll have to track down a flywheel/flexplate for it. The one I do have is already in the car attached to my existing engine...

@CNC-Dude sounds like you're recommending waiting until I have more parts in my hand.
 
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Perry, You need to get an idea of what it will take to clean up the cylinder bore with the minimum amount , .but you also need to contact some ring mfgs., like total seal and talk to them about your build and figure out what they have or can do for you...The thinner metric seem to be recommended now ...The last time I ordered pistons they said that they could make the pistons any size not just .010 .020 .030 etc. But you have to be able to get the rings for it.
On the crank, I am sure that it would not matter but in my mind I would balance after ground to size.
I would just source the honing plate your self, no one will have one.
 
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