Help!! I have pulled and installed 6 or 7 170s with small bell housings in to/ out of falcons over the years. I never do a great job but they all seem to drive when I finish. But I recently picked up a nice 200 that was recently rebuilt. Sweet deal too. Here's my problem: I had a perfectly working C4. I bought a new torque converter and flex plate. I installed the converter, lined up the bolts on the flex plate, loosely bolted the bellhousing to the 2nd set of bolt holes on the block. Put the nuts on the converter. Everything lined up perfect. I was able to hand turn the engine and the converter turned with it. But when I started to tighten the trans to the block I could not turn over the engine. It felt like the center nub on the converter was pressing the center of the flex plate or the end of the crank (?) (in the center of the crank bolt holes). I put a few bolt rings on the back of the flex plate as spacers but when I tighten the trans to the block ...it would not turn. No change. I have been working on this for weeks and I am wits end. This a simple deal but I am obviously doing something really wrong. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
All Small Six Trouble attaching C4 to 200
- Thread starter Tcrudo
- Start date
This relates to all small sixes
I left off some important info. The engine is a 66 from a 1966 mustang with a clutch. The C4 transmission is a 1970 with 26 spline. The bellhousing is the 7976 standard small with the 10:00 starter position. i used the metal divder plate between the trans and block but also removed it to see that made a difference. It didn't. As I said, everything lined up perfectly except the whole thing locks up and the engine can't be turned at all if I tighten the trans to the block.
There are two possibilities to cause this kind of trouble. First is the engine you said that bought the engine from a car that had a manual trans in it, had a clutch. If so there is a pilot bushing in the center of the crankshaft flange these usually are bronze its like a copper color, if the busing is still installed in the crankshaft center it needs to be removed so the torque converter fits into it.
The second possibility is that you have not seated the torque converter all the way into the front pump drive lugs on the C4 this is a common thing to do. Dose the input shaft end fit into your new torque converter? There sre a couple different splines that were used. If thats ok then its all about installing the torque converter correctly into the C4’s front pump. With your good hand (this is right for me) put it on the torque converters center hub and lift up the converter up just slightly only to take the weight off. Now spinning the converter slowly and pushing it in, when its all the way in you will hear it bottom out with a thud. Also when its right the coverter studs are setting below the outside edege of the bell housing. Hopefully you didn’t force it together tight enough or do any damage to the front pump. Best of luck
The second possibility is that you have not seated the torque converter all the way into the front pump drive lugs on the C4 this is a common thing to do. Dose the input shaft end fit into your new torque converter? There sre a couple different splines that were used. If thats ok then its all about installing the torque converter correctly into the C4’s front pump. With your good hand (this is right for me) put it on the torque converters center hub and lift up the converter up just slightly only to take the weight off. Now spinning the converter slowly and pushing it in, when its all the way in you will hear it bottom out with a thud. Also when its right the coverter studs are setting below the outside edege of the bell housing. Hopefully you didn’t force it together tight enough or do any damage to the front pump. Best of luck
Hi, the way I know that the torque converter is seated in all the way is you should have to pull it into the flex plate. If the flex plate starts pushing the torque converter something is wrong. That is usually not the problem. I would guess it is the old pilot bushing. Good luck
Thanks for the quick replies Bubba and Bronco. When I put a straight edge on the bellhousing, I only get about an 1/8 inch of clearance between the edge and the nub of the converter. But the teeth are about 1 inch back from the lip of the bellhousing. I spent an hour trying to get it farther but it seemed to be seated. I had heard this was a tough job so maybe my prior experiences spoiled me because it was never more than a 5 minute job. But I will go at it again this evening. I kind of thought this was the problem originally but when I set the flex plate on the torque converter to check for space/match, the nub of the converter still sticks through the hole in the flex plate about 1/4 inch. This would jam it against the crank when the flex plate gets tightened down all the way.
I like the possibility that there is a crankshaft bushing that is still in place. I am not near the engine now so I can't look but do I remove it with a pair of needle nose, vice grips, flat edge screw driver, etc. I don't want to take a hammer or wrenches to anything that just needs some patience and finesse.
Again, thanks for any help. I will let you know what happens.
I like the possibility that there is a crankshaft bushing that is still in place. I am not near the engine now so I can't look but do I remove it with a pair of needle nose, vice grips, flat edge screw driver, etc. I don't want to take a hammer or wrenches to anything that just needs some patience and finesse.
Again, thanks for any help. I will let you know what happens.
Removing the crankshaft pilot busing can be done in severial ways without any damage to the engine or the bushing but not with any of the above tools that you mentioned. I often used wheel bearing grease and a round metal rod that fits snugly in the center hole of the plot bushing, using a hammer on the end of the shaft the Hydrolic action will push out the bushing after repacking it a couple more times. Others have their own methods such as using bread or an inside bearing puller.
To me it sounds like you already have the torque convert fully seated from all your Pryor experience but many first timers have this troble. So I think you will be find the Pilot busing is still in the crankshaft and with in a short time you will have the engine and Trans blotted up correctly. Best of luck
To me it sounds like you already have the torque convert fully seated from all your Pryor experience but many first timers have this troble. So I think you will be find the Pilot busing is still in the crankshaft and with in a short time you will have the engine and Trans blotted up correctly. Best of luck
Well, I haven't driven it yet. I could have destroyed the front pump but I won't find out until I turn the key and put it in gear. The truth is also that the engine looks good and turns easy but that could also be another problem that I deal with this winter. I got the entire package installed an hour ago. I need to refill the transmission with fluid tomorrow and see if there is some damage. I am still miles ahead because I learned something this week about cars (there are pilot bushings in clutch cars and how to remove the bushing with stuff I actually have in my garage.). I am sure I will be asking for help again. I don't know much and there is a lot I need to know. Maybe I will have to rebuild my new motor.
The good news is that it all runs beautifully (for a 60 year old car assembled by a person learning on youtube). I need to replace the exhaust manifold because of a crack and it is making more noise than it should. I will soak the Exhaust manifold bolts in Penetrating oil for a few days before trying to loosen them. Should have done it before I stuck the engine back in but I did not check it when I had it in front of me. But there is a lot of room to work. Can't decide if I should go with a replacement cast iron manifold or a stainless steel new duel exhaust from ebay ($125). There are also pipe kits that I can put together. Since I have it actually running on a road I am get pretty confident I can do anything!!
'fearless' is important:
"...I can do anything.."
needs tempered w/knowledge tho, no? L O L
Some here use the Speed Daddy hdrs (frm where U mention) while many of us go to "our guy" Matt
www.vintageinlines.com
I did (well... the predecessor - CI) and lub da 'ball connectors' (flex into my 250/4.1 bronk).
Double ck the starter clearance (there's that 'knowledge' again 4 ya)...
"...I can do anything.."
needs tempered w/knowledge tho, no? L O L
Some here use the Speed Daddy hdrs (frm where U mention) while many of us go to "our guy" Matt
Dual Outlet Header | Vintage Inlines
Vintage Inlines exhaust systems bolt directly to this header. Made from T304 stainless steel, the three piece design not only makes installation and removal much easier, the lower extension pipes can be modified for custom applications. Kit includes black oxide header studs.***Now available...
Double ck the starter clearance (there's that 'knowledge' again 4 ya)...
Concerning the starter clearance: Do I have to buy a unique set of duel headers OR do I have to find a special "Small" starter that will fit the new pipes? I don't have a bending machine so I assume I will be "U" bracketing the whole thing together. I can't change much - I guess I could buy a Mig welder from harbor freight and learn to weld exhaust pipe. Or I could use some type of flex pipe that someone was talking about on the forums here.
look at Matt's, C if Speed Daddy is still on flee bay. We KNOW bout them.
I puta 69stang motor in my '70 bronk ona '77 frame (C sig below). As a long time member here I ordered a bent6 late '80s stang starter from Duralast (I wuz a prts guy at the local autoZone, took the 20% discount when I could). I Did Not need it (a sorta mini starter).
U say "welding, etc". U must cut 1st to weld. There will B nonea dat ! We use a BFH to adjust or pmgr starters, etc. As prt ofan overall program - hdrs can help but it's only 5% (now dozens of 5% will add up pretty nice). Now I'm on "exh" a 'port divider' (10, 15$ piece) is recommended. Like any older car, any mods - most C just the surface. We "gotta go fur to get a lill". "the Handbook":
www.vintageinlines.com
AND
above tech archive help - even a fella w/ur experience on these.
I myself have stuck w/the ThriftPower a few decades now (the slanty and european 6s were in my past) and must admit - they're a delight (history, shere variation - lub to turbo a 144/2.4, hop up ur 3.3, shoulda placed a 300/4.9 in my bronk, stout bottom, alu & Oz 2v heads, etc). W E L C O M E ! enjoy ur stay.
I puta 69stang motor in my '70 bronk ona '77 frame (C sig below). As a long time member here I ordered a bent6 late '80s stang starter from Duralast (I wuz a prts guy at the local autoZone, took the 20% discount when I could). I Did Not need it (a sorta mini starter).
U say "welding, etc". U must cut 1st to weld. There will B nonea dat ! We use a BFH to adjust or pmgr starters, etc. As prt ofan overall program - hdrs can help but it's only 5% (now dozens of 5% will add up pretty nice). Now I'm on "exh" a 'port divider' (10, 15$ piece) is recommended. Like any older car, any mods - most C just the surface. We "gotta go fur to get a lill". "the Handbook":
The Ford Falcon SIX Cylinder PERFORMANCE HANDBOOK | Vintage Inlines
The Ford Falcon SIX Cylinder Performance Handbook has 107 pages of History, Facts, and Information to help you get more power out of your small Ford SIX. This engine was used in Falcons, Mustangs, Fairlaines, and Comets in the 60’s. It was the FoMoCo workhorse in Mavericks, Granadas, and...
above tech archive help - even a fella w/ur experience on these.
I myself have stuck w/the ThriftPower a few decades now (the slanty and european 6s were in my past) and must admit - they're a delight (history, shere variation - lub to turbo a 144/2.4, hop up ur 3.3, shoulda placed a 300/4.9 in my bronk, stout bottom, alu & Oz 2v heads, etc). W E L C O M E ! enjoy ur stay.
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