170 cubic inch performance ?

[BetsyBabe64]

I own a 1964 ford falcon, standard sedan (4door)

my dream is to take betsy babe (cars name) and turn her into a sleeper, something nice and fun to drive. The thing is, everyone is telling me not to put any money into this car, other then oil changes and what not, all kinds of people tell me it will be a waste of time and money to upgrade my cars performance. I want the truth from people who know what they are talking about (this is where you all come in)

First off, i wanna know if my engine has a four journal saddle for the crankshaft, or if it has a 7 journal. I've tried my hand at research, and all i can find out is that at some point, during the production year of my car, they switched to the 7 journal, and recasted the block. I ask because i'm under the impression that a 7 journal is better then a 4, when it comes to performance.

it also seems that i couldn't bore anything bigger, because as is my engine is at its max (from what i understand) so if i can't bore anything out, and my engine stays a 170cubic inch, and i only have a 4 journal saddle for my cam shaft, then as far as upgrades go, could i ever get past 101HP, and if so, would it be worth it to jimmy rig my fuel pump to make it a super carter one, change the ignition, exhaust (i wanna do a duel exhaust, with two 3's going into one) add disk breaks, and a better carb, like a two barrel, or maybe a 4 barrel holly (i want a 4 barrel )

so how can i check to see what my journal is about ?

also, i'm tying to figure out what the original interior looked like in my car, as well as the block and head colors. My air filter use to be orange with 170 written on it. I know this, because i took sand paper and took off the black layer of paint, to find a blue layer, then to find a orange layer with the 170 sticker (believe it or not the sticker is still there under all that paint)

the head has two layers of blue. Ford dark, and light blue, and then just bare metal. The block is blue, and the oil pan is blue. That could mean when the engine was rebuilt they did that.

Thank You !

 

[Vin Man]

What are the casting numbers on the block? We should be able to decode those to tell you how many journals you have.

 

[rbohm]

I own a 1964 ford falcon, standard sedan (4door)

my dream is to take betsy babe (cars name) and turn her into a sleeper, something nice and fun to drive. The thing is, everyone is telling me not to put any money into this car, other then oil changes and what not, all kinds of people tell me it will be a waste of time and money to upgrade my cars performance. I want the truth from people who know what they are talking about (this is where you all come in)

nice car, i have a 64 falcon futura 2dr that also has the 170. dont listen to the naysayers who think you cant get performance from a small six(i used to be that way until i found this site). i will say this though, dont expect to take on one of john force's company cars with your six, but you can get decent performance from the engine.

First off, i wanna know if my engine has a four journal saddle for the crankshaft, or if it has a 7 journal. I've tried my hand at research, and all i can find out is that at some point, during the production year of my car, they switched to the 7 journal, and recasted the block. I ask because i'm under the impression that a 7 journal is better then a 4, when it comes to performance.

your six is just like mine in that it has the 4 main block. yes the 7 main blocks are better for performance IF you are trying to get the car into the 10's like does10s has. the four main crank will do just fine for what you want to do. when ford went to the 200 they changed the blocks to the 7 main block, though a few early 200's have the four main block, and a few late 170's have the 7 main block. again though dont worry about it.

it also seems that i couldn't bore anything bigger, because as is my engine is at its max (from what i understand) so if i can't bore anything out, and my engine stays a 170cubic inch, and i only have a 4 journal saddle for my cam shaft, then as far as upgrades go, could i ever get past 101HP, and if so, would it be worth it to jimmy rig my fuel pump to make it a super carter one, change the ignition, exhaust (i wanna do a duel exhaust, with two 3's going into one) add disk breaks, and a better carb, like a two barrel, or maybe a 4 barrel holly (i want a 4 barrel )

the only way you will know if you can overbore the block is to find out if it has been rebuilt before, and how much it was overbored, if any. the tops of the pistons will be marked indicating how much the cylinders have been overbored. as for a cam, pick one that works in the rpm range in which you plan to run the engine in 85% of the time. for the street a cam that works in the 1000-4500 rpm range is perfect. classicinlines.com has a good selection of cams to choose from.

as for an ignition upgrade, if you have an early production 170, you will need to do a few simple mods to use the duraspark distributor as the dist shaft is smaller on the early 170's. i have that problem with mine. 1964 was the year the change was made as a running change, so some 170;s can use the later dist and others cant. the mods you will have to make are;

1: the hole where the shaft runs need to be enlarged a bit.

2: you need to change the oil pump driveshaft to the larger shaft on the later engines

3: you need to change the oil pump to the later one as well.

the next thing to add is a header, again classicinlines.com to the rescue.

as to the fuel pump question, you dont need more than the stock fuel pump to feed a 170. as for carburettors, you can adapt a 2bbl carb to your log head using an adapter, or you can modify the log head for a direct mount. using the adapter causes hood clearance issues, but to direct mount the carb you need to have some machine work done.

 

[CoupeBoy]

I get confused a little bit by people like you..(please don't take offense) first you want to modify your motor, then you want to restore your interior and engine color to factory stock, then you want to add a bunch of aftermarket stuff to your motor, I never quite know how to answer, so you are getting what I'd do if I were you..

If you can find a whole motor, that's good, but it wouldn't fit with my plan, you also get to enjoy your car while working on the new power plant, less downtime=less frustration.

1. Find a rebuildable 200 block, it will bolt right into place of your original motor, then you don't have to care how many main bearings you have, in the end you will have 7 and 30 more cubic inches. Another issue that will be overted is which distributor are you currently using? The early blocks have a different sized distributor hole the only upgrade options are Petronix (but you want to get rid of your original carb/SCV) so you are stuck with the DUI from ClassicInlines, which is a great peice of work but not very transferrable to a newer motor. With a newer block you can run a Petronix in a '68 or newer points style distributor, a Duraspark, Duraspark II, or a DUI (I like options)
2. Find a newer 'flat top' log head so you can have it modified for a direct mount 2bbl, that's the best option short of a tri-power (3 x 1bbl), I bought a '75 250 head from the wrecking yard for $50, but you would be better served finding the newest one you can ('83 was the last year) because they would already have the hardened seats in them. Don't worry about how much you have to mill the head, you would have to have that done anyhow and .01 costs the same as .09 at the machine shop.

You will need to evaluate the condition of your donor parts, replace and rebuild as necessary, I'm sure addo will be along shortly to let you know that it's better to have your cam reground to a more performance spec then buying a new cam (there is a lot of information on here about newer cams having harder gear/tooth surfaces then the original ford parts)

The only option I know about for a dual exaust system is a header, so order one up, ceramic coated is better.

I think the early colors were black block, red valve cover and air cleaner assemblies. The only orange engines I've ever seen from ford I believe were faded from Red..put whatever decals you like on the engine, it's your car after all.

-ron

 

[Vin Man]

Good info on identification in the sticky here: http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54747

If you are looking to upgrade to a 200, I know a guy...

Really, I just posted a find. A friend has a complete, rebuilt setup from oil pan to carb and the 3 speed tranny. Here is a link to my post.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55721

 

[BetsyBabe64]

I love reading stuff about my car
I believe the block number to be "03de-6015E" There is a tag on the block that says:
Bore: 060
Rods: 010
Mains: 010
And then has a ident number.

 

[Vin Man]

I love reading stuff about my car
I believe the block number to be "03de-6015E" There is a tag on the block that says:
Bore: 060
Rods: 010
Mains: 010
And then has a ident number.

More likely C3DE-6015E

From the Ford Falcon Six Cylinder Performance Handbook (I recommend you purchase this book)

C3DE - indicates a 1963 Falcon Engine
6015 is the block E is the revision.

This is a 4 main journal 170 cubic inch motor.

The tag tells me the engine has been bored out 0.060 inches and the crank and rods have been ground down 0.010 inches with over sized bearings to compensate.

If you pull the head, you'll likely see a .060 stamped on the piston.

I would not bore this engine out again.

 

[BetsyBabe64]

wow, sounds like good stuff has been done to my engine.

I don't know what to say, or do. I just ordered myself the performance handbook. THank You everyone.

 

[powerband]

The 170 is a good choice ... depending on your build goal:

MPG consciousness was dominating factor in the re-build of my DD - '63 More-door wagon. It had a wheezy but reliable original C3XX 170/3spd. I replaced engine with a tight '71 C8XX Maverick 170. To keep up the mileage, installed new timing set but stock cam, DSI electronic dizzy, H/W 5200 progressive 2bbl , and most importantly Overdrive tranny. Most six cars have the pre-Interstate driving 3.50 rear. with the T5 OD there is no problem cruising wiith modern traffic .
It does have a radical built hi-compression cylinder head (kudos=Schejhldal bros ! .). Oversize valves, ported & relieved, long tube dual outs...

All the contributing aspects of the build were to allow for the fun of "sleeper" performance while maximizing the "commuter" MPG by exploiting the low rpm torque curve of the ford small six.

Also working on a gas-guzzling torque monster of a '250 CID with performance dominant, but I don't/can't drive it daily.

Powerband

 

[cameljockey]

wow, sounds like good stuff has been done to my engine.

I don't know what to say, or do. I just ordered myself the performance handbook. THank You everyone.

No offense if you are being sarcastic
but 0.060 overbore is the upper limit for boring over any of our L6's
if those machining operations are fresh and your engine was recently rebuilt I would not touch the block and focus instead on improving the breathing capabilities with a later model ported Iron head, and add slightly hotter cam to take advantage of the better breathing.
So I would say bad things have been done LOL at least if you were considering using this block for a future rebuild. If you are it would be best to find another 170 ci engine as a better foundation for a build.

In these harsh economic times there is ALOT to be said for good gas mileage and dead nuts reliability

Keep Sixn'
Dan