181 REAR wheel Kw's

Should i keep with NA or build turbo motor

  • turbo

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • keep it na

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

DYNOED250

Well-known member
well guys for those that dont know me about 2 years ago i built this 250 i got it dynoed the other week in car at last...... THe shorter runners on the custom manifold worked for a total of 181 rear wheel kw from a na/ 250.
Heres how i done it ..
HEAD= C2 With 2V 302 Cleverland valves turned down to 1.98. Moderate porting Head fitted with double valve springs and cromemolly Retainers standard collets. Decked to acheave 11.5:1 comp. We went to far it has 35cc chambers now, i am running 2 head gaskets and a decomp plate The compression is still 11.5:1.
Rockers are Street terra Adjustable.

BOTTOM END= Cortina block, 200 Rods, 250 crank, Acl Race series bearings and pistons. Hi-Energy sump, jp oil pump. Decked to 0 deck height. Romac alloy Balancer. ARP rod bolts.

INTAKE/EXHAUST= Intake is custom ED falcon manifold, cut down and internally ported with shorter runners this is welded to XF injection rail which is ported out to match ed runners.
Injectors are 400 cc with bosch hi volume EFi fuel pump. Computer is INJECT.
EXHAUST is pacemaker headers 6-2-1 , into one hotdog and one semi off set muffler size is 2 1/2. Igniton is MSD coil with XE dissy weights locked for 24 deg timing
CAM= Is Wade carnt tell you every thing but its 260@0.050 and lift is 560. SOLID GRIND running .012 clearance

Rev limit is 6250, what more can i say, it needs a fuel and ignition computer so the inject will be getting ditched for a microtec or similar.
 
240RWHP isn't too foul. :wink:

Can't vote in the poll before I know your anticipated engine "duty" and lifespan.
 
hahaha. the car is just a weekend thrasher... its in a te cortina with 3.7's and manual single rail.....
I built this combo to run 13's , but now i want more.... i was thinking mabie making a 6 throtlle short runner manifold with sock filters ... Not sure...
Engine life is not an isse man.. i know at this level you carnt expect it to live forever as big revs take there toll
 
I think continue without forced air.

This way, you will become fully in touch with tweaking the operating parameters, and a future turbo motor would be way easier to dial in.

BTW, you on the turps tonight? Just wondering. :wink:
 
Went to the Westernationals last night and saw Errol Quatermaine run 8.58 in the 191ci Crossflow six with turbo. that equates to around 850bhp on methanol.
I dont know much about the car except its FAST
My vote is for turbo if its within your budget, I must say however thats a VERY good effort with NA.
A7M
 
I'm with A7M. Any turbo will always give any amount of the power you want. You work within a restrained budget, and cost up 350, 400, 500, 600, and 700 flywheel hp, and see if your not broke at the end of each one!.

For each dollar spent, a turbo is money for jam. It's main problem is greed, and buiding the pipes and bits to take the power within your budget. It's easy to leg blocks, pistons and run main bearings and cams if you don't build the engine to suit each level.

Nitrous is just a stage one turbo system, and doesn't factor in most peoples minds. You can't go more overboard than half the existing power extra 'cause it just detonates pistons. So a 240 hp engine can become 350 hp easy, but not 400 hp

On the pessimstic side, there's a bag load of items that make me see $$$.

1. Firstly, it needs to be built to a purpose. It doesn't have to be al things to everyone, it has to suit your goals.
2. I don't like manual drag cars.Way too inconsistant unless you can rig up some kind of ABS operated launch control system or perhaps a disk brake on the drive shaft. In the future, these may preload the tendancey to loose it on the line. That's why I'm like 95% of all RWD drag racers and I like autos, (four speed autos actually),
3. I don't like the stock 200 rods, the Pontiac 400 or 300 I6 Ford are hell for stout and cheap if you can find a friendly American or laid upo Poncho.
4. I don't like the thinner acl race pistons under lots of boost. (You will run lots of boost becasue no-one does the work you've done to sit around and moan about a lack of hp!)
5. I don't like the expense of dialing in the EFI. (Goes with the territory when you play auto manufacturers).
6. I don't like the kind of exy fabricated exhast set-ups the drag racers use. I think the stock set-up is the best for long term durability, and there is little to stop you fitting a BA set-up if you add a 9.5 mm spacer. Just enough room for plugs, and if you use a low mount C4 V8 block adaptor, you can fit it up. (Shameless plug on a project I'm working on)

My first thinking is let's shove it through the Falcon 6 Performance computer as it is.

Currently, with what I guess is the standard aftermarket 62.5 thou spacer, and two 41 thou Permaset gaskets, you have

Input Values:
Number Of Cylinders 6
Bore Diameter [inches] 3.71
Stroke Length [inches] 3.91
Combustion Chamber Volume [cubic centimeters] 35
Head Gasket Compressed Thickness [inches] 0.041+0.0041+0.0625 = 0.1445
Head Gasket Bore Diameter [inches] 3.81
Piston To Deck Clearance [inches] 0.016 (most X-flows sat at this)
Select Piston Type Dished
Dish/Valve Relief/Dome Volume [positive cubic centimeters] 3.0
Volumetric Efficiency: 95%
RPM (at maximum power): 5500

Displacement, [cubic inches] 254
Displacement, [liters] 4.2
Static compression ratio 11.2:1
Cubic Feet per Minute required @ 5500 rpm, [cfm] 383
Estimated Horsepower @ 5500 rpm
Assumes altitude of sealevel, barometric pressure of 14.696 and 60° air supply to carburator = 276

Considering your getting 181 kw, thats about 240 hp at the flywheel. I'm certain there is another 36 hp hiding somewhere if you rework the electronics and ignition system.

There could be 400 hp there with a nitrous bottle and a further drop in compression, but with a SR 4 box, it won't take the punishment or drop the quarter mile times as much as a good C4 with 2300 rpm stall will.


My cost effective way to B-I-G hp.

I'm not an expert, and if this offends you, then send hate mail to my adress in Dunedin.

First, I'd look at converting to the EF intake runner base. There is nothing different between the 1994 Coon and the 2005 item in the major casting. Or use the Nismo item used on the latest 1500 hp XR6 Turbo.

You will then have the same intake as the latest 240 and 270 Barra. Why not get the Ford standard part BA turbo manifold, add a big 9.5 mm steel plate gaket, and adapt it like you have done to the intake? Run the GT45 or a big TO4.

Do a simple decompression job, with a copper or straight steel spacer gasket dry decked to both block and head.

As i've said, I don't aggree with the 200 rods, or the pistons. Not at the 650 hp level. Each has a limit of strength. I'd look at Pontiac 400 rods, or the 300 I6 rods form Yank trucks.

There is no way a 35 cc chamber is going to give you the c/r you need. I'd just get some T356 alloy laser or profile or cnc machined cut to gasket shape suit, and weld and and aradite it to the existing head, and bring it back to the 58 cc chamber you need. I don't care if it ends up bathtubed at all.

The head could stay fixed with the current gasket set-up, but I wouldn't use that sutuff. In my opinion, needs to be dry decked, and a nice 145 thou copper gasket plate with Moroso fire rings biteing up to the top and bottom.

Don't worry about the lack of good 'o' deck if you use a thick plate to get the compression back. Who cares if you have a piston parked 125 thou below the head anyway if the compression is too high?

If you can get the compression to 8.6:1, it won't be a nasty sucker on 98 octane.

After all that, you can dial in a bit of boost (18 to 22 psi), some intercooling, and then be sure to add a great auto to you block. There should be 650 hp there if its tuned right.

And forget 3-speed autos. Look at fitting the the 4R70W or AOD-E or even a worked THM 700 there. Stick with the 24" tall tyres, add a set of 3.27:1 hyrdratrack gears, and it'll criuse at 2000 rpm at 110 clicks with the converter locked up, and then glide through the traps at 130 mph (210 clicks) at 6000 rpm in third.

Street cars that race are the biggest turn on a car addicted guy could have. One you can cruise to the drags with, and then shut down the oposition with.

Why want something you can't have when with your skills, you can use the factory gear and get all the grunt without spending 10 grand plus on fabrication?
 
thats 240 at the rear tyres which with a single rail and borgy i think its just over 300 hp at engine or so ..... ive decided to keep it na till i kill the bottom end.. by killing i mean hole in block or somthing like that... ..

im thinking of 6 throttle boddies running short runners ... mabie throtles of a 4age quad thrttle body motor or similar?
 
Wow, thats more like 240 kw at the flywheel, or 321 hp! You got around 300 hp on the engine dyno! Well done, as it exceeds the level I'd expect.

As it is, If you are looking at still running the four speed, it'll be lots more fun with a set of 2.92:1 gears. You'll be able to use third right through the traps, and get high 12's with ease.

You know, I can see a 400 hp NA machine hiding in there if your cam could take it to 6250 or more. There is often 25% more power from slide throttles with long runners or trumpets if its optimised.

The stock 1.5" tubes could be cut to take some simple Stromberg BXOV 200 Falcon throttle bodies on a postive stop linkage. Then you remap a new computer sytem with some trumpets just below the bonnet.

The other option is the Weber style side draft throttle body. It is a good step with an aftermarket TWM style set-up.

If you got the majic 400 hp with idependent runners, then try a little nitrous, a can see almost 590 hp!

A9X's would cry 'enough'!
 
Now thats the problem getting the girl to make peak power at 6000+
id love a 400 hp na machine.... not to many about....

With the bigger valves, ill get more from bigger lift cams... but the thing im worried about is i have street trerra rockers using stock mount pedistals... Not sure how these will like a 600 lift cam :>
Do u think there is a way to get to the magic 400 without spinning it as hard as that :> Just that im not sure where to go as far as head mods..
Mabie fill the lower part of the intake and port it upwards to make a high port head.. this would help a fair bit...

using 6 stock stromberg bases would be somthing id consider.. only thing would be the tps id have to hook up but nothing is difficult once you put ya mind to it......


My start will be an XF falcon fuel/ injector mount raill.... any ideas are welcom...
 
Take

1)cubic inches,

2) the rpm at peak power,

3) divide it by 4000.

That's the very maximum amount of power at the flywheel you'll get for a wild street screemer with all the fruit.

That 4000 figure is the break mean effective pressure. A stock XF is about 6000. The stock Barra 182 is about 5250. A BOSS 290 is about 4500. A DJR 429 is 4055. Larry Perkins 304 VP Commodore racer was about 3600, about the same as the latest AVESCO cars.

As you go from an urban plodder to a wild fire breather, the volumetirc efficiency improves. In rough terms,
6000 is 75% VE. 250*4000/6000 = 167 hp, single cam, canted valve alloy Clevo heads
5250 is 85% VE. 243*5250/5250 = 243 hp, twin cam, variable valve
4500 is 90% VE. 330*5400/4500 = 396 hp, quad variable valve
4055 is 100% VE 330*5300/4100 = 427 hp, quad cam, variable valve
3600 is 108% VE 302*7500/3600 = 629 hp, single cam, canted valve alloy Clevo heads

For 400 hp, your 254 needs to rev to 5500 rpm, and have a ratio of 3500, or more than 108% VE. That's not going to happen unless you have the skills of a NASCAR or AVESCO engine builder.

The best you can hope for is 400 hp at 6300 rpm, with a head that flows as well in relative terms as the DJR 320's quad cammer does.

At 5500 RPM, you could look at 350 hp of Phase 3 beeting power with all the throttles and the electronics massaged to suit.
 
hahaha i deff dont have the porting skills of a nascar bloke... i reckon 350 hp is prob the most my budget is going to allow. I rekong the internal set-up is about as good as its going to get for my budget... im hoping i can squeese the extra from just bolt ons like manifolds ... once again you know ya formulas pretty good :>
 
Isnt the head and manifold intake runner size the critical thing here as Auzzie seven mains mentioned once. Surely 40mm plus would be better (not 2V).
 
http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html


Intake Runner Length Computation by Bowling and Grippo
Computation Results:
Input length is 10 inches
For 2nd harmonic, RPM range is from 11748 to 14256 with a pulse strength of 10 percent
For 3rd harmonic, RPM range is from 8827 to 10088 with a pulse strength of 7 percent
For 4th harmonic, RPM range is from 6882 to 7696 with a pulse strength of 4 percent


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce A. Bowling
Al C. Grippo

If the intake runners are longer, then it hurts the power a great deal. The diameter ans volume of the header to the intkae runner must be about 30 to 60% for maximum power, and the diameter isn't as critical. If the air flow figures are okay at the head, an the air speed isn't at a super sonic level, it'll be fine. Throttle body size must ensure the critical air speed at max rpm isn't above 200 feet per second.
 
Back
Top