All Small Six 2 bolt starter swap for 200 w/manual trans

[funkaholik]

I've read through all the starter threads I could find here on Fordsix (especially @bubba22349's excellent "Starter swaps..." thread that I've read like 5 times) and searched online till my eyes bled, but I can't find any information on a smaller case replacement available for the high-mount, 2-bolt, 4.130" registry hole, 3/8" ring gear depth starter on my '67 200 w/manual trans. Is there really nothing available?

I'd like to replace my gigantic factory starter while I have the exhaust off, but I can't find anything other than an identical gigantic replacement.

I see that there are Powermaster starters on this chart with the correct 4.130" registry hole and 3/8" ring gear depth, but they are for SBF V8's and looking at the mounting holes, they don't line up with the mounting holes on my 200 starter. The holes on the 200 unit are almost straight across from each other (maybe 175-178 degrees?) and the SBF holes look like they are 165 to 170 degrees.

Has anyone out there among all the manual trans owners actually found and used one that fits? Any information is appreciated.

 

[DON]

The fine print at the bottom specifies different flywheel tooth counts as well, what is your tooth count? If you have 164 tooth, you might be out of luck. That might be why @bubba22349 was talking about modifying/ drilling new holes. That is my take anyway. You might have to buy a cheap donor starter , do some drilling and see if you can make it work. I was kinda waiting to see if any response was made by others, someone still might

 

[funkaholik]

My understanding from reading lots of threads is that the tooth count is important only to identify whether it is a 3/4" or 3/8" ring gear depth, and since mine is 3/8" it must be a 164.

It seems that on the "Infiniclock" style Powermaster units, all one would need is a mounting block with the correctly spaced mounting ears and correct size starter registry (4.130), and you'd be in business. The 9504 and 9604 starters should work perfectly once a different mounting block is bolted on. Both of these units have a ⅜" depth and 4.130 registry. One ear just needs to be in a slightly different place. If someone has the CAD skills, we could get some six-cylinder compatible mounting blocks made and both of these starter options should work.

 

[bmbm40]

My understanding from reading lots of threads is that the tooth count is important only to identify whether it is a 3/4" or 3/8" ring gear depth, and since mine is 3/8" it must be a 164.

It seems that on the "Infiniclock" style Powermaster units, all one would need is a mounting block with the correctly spaced mounting ears and correct size starter registry (4.130), and you'd be in business. The 9504 and 9604 starters should work perfectly once a different mounting block is bolted on. Both of these units have a ⅜" depth and 4.130 registry. One ear just needs to be in a slightly different place. If someone has the CAD skills, we could get some six-cylinder compatible mounting blocks made and both of these starter options should work.

View attachment 24649

That would be great for all the 170/200 owners using the large and heavy oem starters to use the smaller, lighter gear reduction starters. Been awhile but when I put one on my Bronco I'll bet it was 10 lbs lighter. Wish I had weighed them now just for reference. Hope you get this underway.

 

[62falcon wagon]

I don’t know if this relevant or not but I have mounted a big block fe starter on a 200 before. Had to do some mating of the starter drive. If I remember right big 6 and small v8 use 1 bolt pattern and small 6 and big v8 use the other. Don’t know if that opens up another source of gear reduction starters but just thought I’d share.

I do remember that that 390 starter spun that 200 way faster than idle. You had to remember to give 1/2 throttle when cranking for starter drive to kick out smoothly.

 

[funkaholik]

@62falcon wagon You are correct about the FE starter: it is a 3-bolt, 3/4" pinion depth type, and will work on some transmission/flywheel versions of the small six. It will not work on manual transmission cars with the high-mount, 2-bolt, 3/8" depth starter, which is a combination many of us have.

 

[drag-200stang]

Where is ''starter swaps'' I cannot find it?

 

[funkaholik]

@drag-200stang
https://fordsix.com/threads/starter-swaps-for-the-250s-200s-other-small-sixes.80808/

 

[drag-200stang]

Thank you for that.
bubba or someone else posted the ''Lester'' catalogue page for ford starters. The way I understand it, it is for rebuilders and it shows a number that they use, it shows what starter will fit which engines and trans., you could maybe find if something will work or not.

 

[drag-200stang]

My understanding from reading lots of threads is that the tooth count is important only to identify whether it is a 3/4" or 3/8" ring gear depth, and since mine is 3/8" it must be a 164.

It seems that on the "Infiniclock" style Powermaster units, all one would need is a mounting block with the correctly spaced mounting ears and correct size starter registry (4.130), and you'd be in business. The 9504 and 9604 starters should work perfectly once a different mounting block is bolted on. Both of these units have a ⅜" depth and 4.130 registry. One ear just needs to be in a slightly different place. If someone has the CAD skills, we could get some six-cylinder compatible mounting blocks made and both of these starter options should work.

View attachment 24649

I see that you got your old starter to work so this may not interest you.
If one wanted to use a mini, I would think that one could get the one with the right registry and the right offset. Pick the mounting ear that fits the top bellhousing bolt hole, slight oblonging of hole may be needed but probably not. For the bottom mounting make a clamp, think like a dist. hold down but shaped to to the job.
If you think oh no that won't work, look at the pic of the starter and see the what the starter is held to the mounting block with, washer and two small screws clamping it at a narrow spacing.

 

[DON]

The small screws you are referring to hold the housing to the mounting block, and the bearings for the armature. It would seem to me no torque is generated or transferred through the housing. Torque is generated in the armature which would restrained at the junction between the starter and bell housing. I’m not saying what you are suggesting won’t work, I think it will. I just am questioning the torque is restrained by the two small screws that hold the housing on. One could loosen those screws, energize the starter with the mounting block in a vise, and see it wants to twist?. My money is on “ it won’t “
( I’ve been wrong before !!)

 

[drag-200stang]

The small screws you are referring to hold the housing to the mounting block, and the bearings for the armature. It would seem to me no torque is generated or transferred through the housing. Torque is generated in the armature which would restrained at the junction between the starter and bell housing. I’m not saying what you are suggesting won’t work, I think it will. I just am questioning the torque is restrained by the two small screws that hold the housing on. One could loosen those screws, energize the starter with the mounting block in a vise, and see it wants to twist?. My money is on “ it won’t “
( I’ve been wrong before !!)

Sorry Don but you would lose that bet, Look at the pic closely. The two small screws hold the starter to the mounting block, The twisting force would be harder to hold there than at the block bolt mounts for the bellhousing that are spaced farther out.
People with that indexable style hold down have had the starter rotate and went to loc tight to stop. That was with big hard to turn over engines.

 

[DON]

Ok. In all honesty, I was picturing a conventional starter layout. I wasn’t picturing the parts that do the indexing. On my behalf the ring becomes part of the mounting block. I can see that twisting there. Still not sure about a housing wanting to twist.

 

[Frank]

. Still not sure about a housing wanting to twist.

Any motor or engine producing twisting torque, the engine or motor housing is attempting to twist back the other way. Visualize this: the engine or motor hanging free from it's crankshaft, the crank bolted to an immovable object. If fired up, the crank will be stationary and the engine/motor will rotate.
This is why the left-hand motor mount breaks first. The crank is rotating CCW from the rear, moving a vehicle which is heavier than the engine. The force produced to turn the crank is trying to spin the engine CW, thus pulling up on the driver's side motor mount. In a semi, taking off in granny with a heavy load, the driver's side of the cab raises up several inches from the engine trying to spin to the right against the crankshaft spinning left.

 

[DON]

Yea, at the motor mounts, not the transmission mount. I see I am going to have to dig out my old starter and loosen some screws.

 

[DON]

You can feel it in drive shaft driven motorcycles. It a matter of where the torque is transmitted

 

[Frank]

Yea, at the motor mounts, not the transmission mount. I see I am going to have to dig out my old starter and loosen some screws.

Trannys produce it too to a lesser *. It's only neutralized in reverse. Inboard marine propulsion, the drive shaft turns opposite of the crank so twist torque is neutralized. Forward in a boat is "reverse" in a vehicle.

 

[funkaholik]

Well I took one for the team and ordered the Powermaster 9504 starter for the small block Ford. Once it arrived I confirmed that the registry hole and the pinion depth are correct for the 200, but one of the mounting ears would need to be clocked in a different position in order for it to bolt up. There is LOTS of clearance to the header, and the clockability of the unit allowed me to position it where the distance from the starter to the tubes and to the collector is about equal. I was also able to easily remove and replace the header with the starter in place, even using studs vs bolts. In the first photo below, it is mounted using the top ear, and you can see that the bottom ear doesn't line up, but it fits flush with the engine plate and tight in the registry hole.

My next step is to design a version of the removable Powermaster mounting flange and then 3D print a prototype to make sure it fits correctly. If this works I will make some out of aluminum. The second photo shows how differently the 200 vs V8 mounting holes are clocked.

 

[funkaholik]

I brought the two flanges to a friend who does CAD today so that he can accurately measure everything and build a CAD file of a flange that fits both the Powermaster starter and the 200 engine. Step one is complete. Once this file is done I will 3D print a version out of plastic and triple-check that everything fits perfectly.