All Small Six New Adventures in electrics fans and inline 6’s

[awasson]

About a week ago, my adventure began… I decided to remove the conventional, belt driven fan on my Ford 200 and replaced it with a 16” 2,600 CFM, curved 10 blade electric fan. It was not entirely successful so I thought I’d document my findings because it might be useful information.

The fan is an Amazon model. It’s not the cheapest model I could find but it’s also not very expensive. It’s Chinese and marketed under the name Evil Energy. It has reasonably good reviews and the only negatives were from people who clearly don’t understand how to effectively retrofit aftermarket equipment in cars.

My Engine
1966 Mustang Ford 200, small log head, recently built engine, 60 over, just under 9:1 compression, clay smith 64/74 camshaft, HEI ignition, EBay header, Weber 38/38 on the funnel type adapter with a manual transmission.

The Configuration
I installed the fan as a pusher on the front of the radiator because at 16” height and width and just under 3” deep, as a puller fan, it was too close to the water pump pulley and the bolts on the pulley grazed the fan. I may move the radiator forwards a touch to see if I can make it fit as a puller type fan on my next attempt. Looking at my radiator, which I had thought was OEM, I now wonder if it is a larger capacity unit as it appears to have multiple mounting points and may have been retrofitted. It does appear to use the OEM hoses though so maybe it is an OEM size replacement. It does a good job of cooling though and was a recent addition before I bought the car.

I hard mounted the fan to the front of the panel that the radiator mounts to and installed foam rubber between the fan housing and the radiator to protect the radiator from friction and vibration. I’ve had some experience installing electric fans in my other cars so I knew right from the get-go that I was going to hard mount it securely and I knew the plastic zip strap things that they ship with electric cooling fans would never have held the fan in place.

I wired power to the fan through a Bosch style 12 volt relay with a 30 amp fuse and ran 12 gauge wire to the fan. Since I was in the testing phase, I didn’t put in the temp sensor just yet and wired it to trigger on my ignition wire so that if the engine was on, the fan was on. I used the ignition feed on the starter solenoid to trip the relay that supplies 12 volts, directly from the battery to the fan.

The Good
The fan is pretty quiet and vibration free. It does generate a lot of wind noise so if I make another attempt, it’ll definitely be on a temperature controller so that it only comes on as needed which will make tuning by ear a lot easier.

Also, according to the temperature gauge, it cools slightly better than the factory belt driven fan. The belt driven fan does a great job and the temperature gauge is usually just ever so slightly above half way. With the electric fan, the gauge is just under half way so the electric fan, even as a pusher is doing an adequate job of cooling.

The Not So Good
The carburetor heat soaked after driving for a while, when the engine came up to temperature. One of the things I’ve learned about the log-head is that it takes a while for the whole cast iron lump to get up to temperature so there are several stages and a bit of time before it is completely warmed up. With the belt driven fan, there is a lot of air circulation in the engine bay and with the electric pusher fan, there is much less. After about 15 or 20 minutes of driving, the engine was completely up to operating temp and the engine was acting as though it was completely leaned out. The water temp was perfect but the carb was obviously percolating fuel and not happy at all. I did a little triage work to route the fuel line away from the valve cover and intake as much as possible and put a temporary heat shield between the head and the float bowl to reduce the problem. I also bought a 7mm phenolic spacer for the carb. That just arrived and I’ll install it regardless of whether I continue down the path of an electric fan.

After I reduced the heat soak problem, another issue surfaced (I think). I didn’t spend a lot of time looking into it but I think the fan might be introducing RF or EMF interference that was affecting my HEI ignition. My background is in automotive electrical so all of my power circuits (HEI ignition, halogen headlights, electrical fan, etc…) are run off a bank of relays beside the battery, sourced with a 4 gauge cable; power delivery is not going to be a problem. I’ve also gone through the entire electrical on this car and replaced ground straps and power cables.

I haven’t upgraded the alternator/regulator yet but I’m looking at the Ford Windstar alternator as an upgrade unit. That said, with the car idling, headlamps on and the cooling fan powered up, it reads 13.8 volts which is the minimum to charge the battery while running so it would appear that the charging system is keeping up to the load. I haven’t put a scope on the power wire to see if it is full of noise and I haven’t checked for RF but when I was trying to get the car to run correctly, I pulled the fuse on the fan and the car stopped acting up. I know that the fan is loading down the electrical system but it’s still high enough to charge the battery while running so I can only assume that the fan is interfering with the HEI. It might be a case of the Chinese HEI not being adequately shielded from RF and the motor on the fan not being adequately shielded from generating RF. I don’t know yet but the change that occurred when I disconnected the fan was like night and day. It might even be a case of the remote regulator creating RF or EMF. I don’t know but something appears to be affecting the ignition and it’s not a lack of voltage so I can only assume it’s electro-mechanical feedback or RF that’s the problem.

Conclusion
Anyway, I’m back to a belt driven fan. I’ve re-tuned the engine and it runs great. Cooling is not a problem but I’d like to remove the overhead of a belt driven fan eventually so I’ll revisit the electrical fan at a later time.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[Bronctopia]

all of my power circuits (HEI ignition, halogen headlights, electrical fan, etc…) are run off a bank of relays beside the battery,

If you suspect RF interference from the fan circuit (your test seems good evidence), try to get as much distance and angle between the fan and HEI circuits as possible.
I ran a dedicated positive and ice cube relay from the battery to fan ( shortest distance too.) And ran the ground from an upgraded radiator support ground to battery negative.

If you still get ignition effects, I guess you want either an electrically cleaner fan, or maybe a DC power choke on the fan supply. The choke isn't ideal for relay lifespan tho, and I would probably put in some flyback protection (diode and resistor).

 

[powerband]

hmmmm , engine bay hot soak ? ,

. the '61 / 250 TriPower has a big Permacool designed for pusher or pull use. Fan is reversed in pusher with a variable sensor temp. It works well in all but most extreme heat when not moving, then gets hotter but no overheat. ( still use low-temp tstats') .
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vented hood used intentionally for Header heat rise, especially carb hot soak after short shut down
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... same fan in Pull on the 250 Maverick doesn't keep temp down reliably, added shroud with little improvement. I've not found the reason so it's been back to the mechanical fan to be revisited...
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, , , direct 12V to fan from batt terminal with fuse out may help diagnose possible RFI
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have fun
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[awasson]

Appreciate the comments and tips guys. I’ve got the 5 speed to put in next and then I’ll upgrade the alternator with a modern charging system. Think once I get that phenolic spacer between the carb base and the carb, with the other changes, it should run cool. I can remove the mechanical fan and install the pusher in about an hour so once I’m set, I’ll give it another shot.

I’ve never had this much trouble swapping the belt driven fan for an electric but all of my other project cars have had points ignitions and aluminum intakes. This car is really a blast so for me it’s worth the little quirks it brings to the table.

 

[sixtseventwo4d]

Two things I would have looked into/done.

1. Check the voltage at the HEI
2. Adjusting the rpm 100-150 more

 

[beanmiester]

So I used a spall(spal?) Fan. It's a pull/pusher. I used it as a puller and offset it a bit so only a corner of the fan motor could get hit by the water pump pulley. I have maybe an 1/8th of clearance. Using the mounting brackets that come with the fan and a few washers I was able to clamp it down to the radiator so it wouldn't move. The puller helped reduce my carbs heat soak and kept the radiator temperature below 160 degrees. I have a 3 core radiator so it is close. If I had a 2 core it would fit perfectly.

 

[Otto]

I'm sure your engine & transmission mounts are in good shape, but if they're not under a panic stop situation the water pump may kiss the fan.

I used a late 90s Taurus fan for a project and it works great; has a built- in shroud too. Pretty low profile also.

 

[philford]

im in the process of adding a second battery to my van. Still in the planning stage at this point and waitign for some free time.

I thought I'd run the headlights off it, and any accessories. I have a wheelchair lift and thought I'd add a little invertor for some 110. I might add a button and a solenoid to connect the hots so I can use the spare battery in the event I have a no start or weak main battery.

If I forget the headlights on would then not kill the main battery.

I bought a battery box it was smaller than I anticipated and Im wondering how big the spare battery really needs to be. RV's and boats use a similar system but they tend to draw more by living aboard. I don't see using it as an RV, just as a fairly low use practical spare vehicle basically.

I wondered if doing similar and pulling the fan's current from the second battery may help with the inerference or ripple .

When its charging it would be in circuit anyway but maybe the secondary battery's capacitance would effectively add some voltage stability?
I think an alternator by nature puts out dirty power, it is rectified into pulsed DC basically, but not filered by capacitors. I reason that the battery normally acts as a capacitor and helps smooth the AC ripple so no filtering of the power is generally necessary.

Im tryng to reason if a similar setup would help with this problem with EMF ( interference) and your opinion on that idea. I'm not saying this IS a solution, but rather, just food for thought. what would happen if the fan ran off a spare battery?

I bought the little charging module, it only charges the spare when voltage is at an operational voltage and disconnects it when its shut off and at or around 12 V. it has a LED voltage readout, I'll see how it goes.. its not a very expensive upgrade.

a lot of these new cars have really dinky little batteries, maybe one of those is sufficient just to have a backup battery, one not used as a camper or RV situation.

the isolator I got is not meant for dry cell applications. The modern dry cell batteries have more sensitive charging needs so Im planning to stick with standard old school wet cells.

what actually led me down the path of thinking to add a separate battry was some stress caused by no starts which I eventually found to be caused by a bad battery to body ( and engine)
ground. I think my bad ground caused resistance for every single circuit and also affected its ability to charge the battery properly. I think htat caused all kinds of weirdness and even poor running, Id be stepping on the gas and going no where fast and then it would correct itself, things like that.. I guess the ECU was probably running but struggling and seeing low voltage. no harm in verifying you have good grounds. Although I realize from the wording in your post that you do have some very good electrical diagnostic capabilities, I think it's just easy stuff to overlook . usually if a ground fails I htin kit turns to a poor connection , if it really failed youd have a no start, causing one to look for the issue. a poor connection can hide as an intermittent. I think the good ground can slowly change into a high resistance ground without revealing itself as a disconnected ground .. The process of the connection transforming from a good connection to a bad ground develops over time and in between can cause confusion before it reaches a state of no connection to ground. I think it's really that "land" in between that is so easily misleading. a place where you have a ground, just not a good low resistance ground. well Id charge up my battery and go out and have starting issues, it was because the battery wasnt; grounded well.

I added a spare ground Just a temporary Kludge, but the problems seem to have since vanished, including some that seemed to be things that revealed themselves as basically poor engine performance.

 

[Frank]

Awasson- two comments: put a thermal control on the fan, yes, AND a manual-on switch on the dash. There are times when I like to run it before I know a big heat soak is coming up.
I used some tubing/small pipe insulation on my fuel lines and it helped a good bit. Used a larger diameter of it on the battery hot cable that goes to the starter also.

Amazon.com : 1/2" thermal coated fire sleve

 

[bmbm40]

Appreciate the comments and tips guys. I’ve got the 5 speed to put in next and then I’ll upgrade the alternator with a modern charging system. Think once I get that phenolic spacer between the carb base and the carb, with the other changes, it should run cool. I can remove the mechanical fan and install the pusher in about an hour so once I’m set, I’ll give it another shot.

I’ve never had this much trouble swapping the belt driven fan for an electric but all of my other project cars have had points ignitions and aluminum intakes. This car is really a blast so for me it’s worth the little quirks it brings to the table.

The T5 will really complement your 200 with the current upgrades. Nice Mustang.

 

[bmbm40]

The T5 will really complement your 200 with the current upgrades. Nice Mustang.

I noticed you mentioned the Windstar alternator as an upgrade and a modern charging system. Is the Windstar alt a 90 amp unit? I recall a Taurus 90 amp alt as having been used somewhat often. I am interested because I want to upgrade my alt which I believe may be a 60 amp provided on 1966 Broncos stock. I am planning on several additions to my Bronco like electric cooling fan, halogen headlights on relay and 5 channel speaker amp as definite additions and then possible electric fuel pump and a somewhat remote possibility of heat seating elements. So after reviewing my list of definite additions I am hoping 90 amp will be enough for me. If I add everything on my list then I would probably need an even larger alt and then you can have a problem with belt slippage but a soft start alt module may be available that I read about awhile back.
So really just looking forward to hearing more about activities concerning the amp upgrade and if you are planning on additional items like in my list.

 

[philford]

if you wre sizing an electrical panel for a shop you could make the assumption that it isn't likely that all the machines will run at the same time so your supply can be less than the toatal amp load of everything , unless you feel it's a possibility, but for now pretend you are the sole employee of your own shop. you probably wont weld and run a lathe at the same time for example.

one way of asuring that is with a power redirect switch so only one can see the power. not both. such design saves copper sometimes.

similar theory applies.
Im adding a spare battery with a isolator but that won't increase its needs or output much but I suppose I could load the alternator a bit if I kept draining such as you may in an RV etc. If I forget my lights on it may make it so I wont kill my ability to start it. I could put a relay on the lights so they shut off with the key. an example may be a switch to choose halogen lamps or seat heaters and never both.

you may be able to measure your amp load with everythign you are likely to operate turned on and take an actual measurement. that may be more accurate than guesswork.

I looked into switching to LED lights, found them a little more pricey than I first assumed.
most sterios Ive had did not have a very high amp load but maybe its a huge amp or something, Id try to find out really what it can draw.

seat heaters will suck power, its a lot of resistance wire, Volvos have them and they use a temperature sensor so they dont go on if its warm out. maybe there is some adbvantage in lowering the power load by sucking from a spare battery in a similar configuration ? it would still need to recharge but maybe not all at once, like if it were draining the main battery.
You obviously can't get power for nothing, the alternator needs to provide the energy just maybe not all at once.
I ordere a spare battery box Ill see if I can fit it uner the hood otherwise its just a bunch of long thick wire. I think it probably does not need to be as thick as a starter cable to charge the spare battery, but it needs to be fat if Im using it as a start battery even occasionally.

In my van I think it was really struggling to charge due toa bad body ground and it really didn't surface as an issue until I had start problems. When I jumped the ground to body with a cable and that cause it to start when it was struggling, I felt that I had found my main issue.. Make sure your grounds are clean and tight, then it wont happen.
the charge circuit needs the body ground to function also the wire from alternator to bodyground, check that.
I was once caught in issues and that was the cause of my grief after I had replaced the alternator, I then discovered that alternator to engine block ground was my real issue. I had simply unbolted it at the alternator and replaced the alternator not the ground wire, at that point not making sure to check the other end, the one grounding the alternator case to engine. the issues looked like a bad alternator because it wasn't charging.. in that case I didn't really need a new alternator.

anyway thre moral is bad grounds can cause charging issues If you suspect it its easy to just add a temporary path as a check , but also good to clean them up good. zero cost in that. Not very technical, but it is easy to overlook the obvious.. Im interested in how you do with the alternator upgrade.

 

[awasson]

I noticed you mentioned the Windstar alternator as an upgrade and a modern charging system. Is the Windstar alt a 90 amp unit? I recall a Taurus 90 amp alt as having been used somewhat often. I am interested because I want to upgrade my alt which I believe may be a 60 amp provided on 1966 Broncos stock. I am planning on several additions to my Bronco like electric cooling fan, halogen headlights on relay and 5 channel speaker amp as definite additions and then possible electric fuel pump and a somewhat remote possibility of heat seating elements. So after reviewing my list of definite additions I am hoping 90 amp will be enough for me. If I add everything on my list then I would probably need an even larger alt and then you can have a problem with belt slippage but a soft start alt module may be available that I read about awhile back.
So really just looking forward to hearing more about activities concerning the amp upgrade and if you are planning on additional items like in my list.

Yes, I think it was a 90 Amp unit I was looking at. That should provide plenty of power for your headlamps and amp. My 60 Amp unit seems fine for the halogen lights on mine and it seemed to be fine running the electric fan but it was probably at the edge of it’s capacity.