200 build begins!

The offset key is one option.
The best deal is Mikes JP full roller timing chain & gears.
Really need to know all the specs on the engine & gearing.
That would make a difference of 2 degrees advance or 4 degrees, or possibly straight up.
 
Update on the build, got the 2* offset key, ground it down to fit, degreed the cam twice and I ended up with 108.25* centerline, which I'm happy with, the key is a bit short but I believe there is lots there for the balancer
http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/m...bc-4a52-a64e-d69ce6d216ae.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

Here is the measurement from the deck down to the piston when at TDC.. 0.065", a measurement I need?
http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/m...55-4e34-83f1-b5b1a36c8584.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

Waiting on new oil pump screen, oil pan and timing cover gasket sets.

like to know your guys thoughts/suggestions/whatevver on my build so far,

Lee
 
From what I can see in the picture, there's more than plenty keyway showing for the damper. How much do you have in the sprocket? The keys are more for locating and keeping things in place but its the bolt that really does the work. Make sure you use a torque wrench to torque the damper bolt. My book shows 85-100 ft lbs. I'd do 95. Make sure you use the original washer. They're pretty beefy. You don't want some hardware stuff that's going to squish out on you.

From the factory 200s piston to deck usually comes in around .026. Looks like you're using aftermarket pistons. They tend to come up shorter. The general consensus is it would be better if your squish was less but it is what it is. Maybe you can locate some NOS thin shim gaskets. That would help out some.

On the one tooth over deal, I came up with just under 19 deg.
 
The key is in the ballpark of halfwway through the gear. It appears the one thing that got away from me was the crank bolt washer, opting for a hardened washer alright?

I used the summit racing compression calculator and I came up with this, is it right? let me know, i got some info from the specs section on classic inlines. Would the stroke be the same after resizeing the rods...etc, how do u measure stroke?

Bore: 3.71" (0.030 over)
stroke: 3.126"
cylinder head volume:52cc---> this is what I believe you guys told me on another thread..http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/mercu ... ort=3&o=15

effective dome volume: +6.5cc
deck clearence: 0.065"
compressed gasket thickness: 0.050" Felpro
number of cylinders:6

Compression ratio 8.02 : 1
Total displacement 202.76


Thanks guys,
Lee
 
It appears the one thing that got away from me was the crank bolt washer, opting for a hardened washer alright?

The stock washer is very thick, you will probably need to stack 2, 3, or 4 to come close, it would be important to try to match if you can't locate the original washer. Goal besides being strong enough is so the crankshaft bolts shoulder dose not bottom out into the the cranks threads and also giving an incorrect torque reading.

Would the stroke be the same after resizeing the rods...etc, how do u measure stroke?

The stroke should still be very close even after re-machining but crankshafts can vary + or - a few thousands depending on setup when regrinding the rod throws. To get an exact measurement you need to find true Top dead Center (TDC) and BDC) then measure difference in piston height to deck height at both locations that will be your stroke length.

Looks like the calculations would be right for the Compression Ratio is that the CR you were aiming for? However in you above picture of the short block the deck height looks to be much higher then .065 my guess looking at it that its about .015 to 0.025 close to what a stock 200 should be. How did you measure it? It just occurred to me that maybe you are using MM measurements if that's the case you will need to convert the US thousands to MM. Are you adding the head gasket thickness into your deck height measurement and then adding it again in the CR program? Did you CC your head yet?
 
WHOA! thanks for pointing that out bubba, I used a dial indicator zero on the decck and would slide it over to the piston, even though I did it twice I read it backwards both times! so the deck height is actually 0.035"

punched it into the calculator and now the CR is at8.53 : 1

Is this alright to keep it there with the cam ive got, this is also creeping into premium fuel territory right?

I havent cc'd the chambers but ive been told theyre 52cc.

Do you recommend keeping this CR? Ive planned on doing the weber 32/36 conversion , header, stock or larger valves? Any ideas/opinions on the larger valves on the bean shaped chambers?

Thanks a lot guys,
Lee
 
Much better you would have been giving up a lot of power. You are well below on CR and wont have any trouble with an 87 and even lower grade fuel. You could use some feeler gauges stacked up or a machinist ruler to double check the deck height measurement. In my OPIN I think you could go up to 8.8 and maybe even to 9.0 and be safe on Regular fuel this depends on Alt. in your area and the temps. Also there is some effect on compression with the cam I did not see the specs on what your using though. However you might also see what those others that run the 200's recommend on that. Yes you should use the largest stock sized valves as used on late model heads as a min. if you don't have them already if your going to buy new ones then you could gain a little more. If your going more for all out performance and will be also porting the head then you could go to the bigger 1.75 In with 1.50 or 1.60 Ex. Good luck
 
A simple formula that is SAFE , and assumes the timing curve is optimized is to slide the decimal point , one place to the right ,example 87 octane 8.7-1 , 93 octane 9.3 -1 and so on if aluminum heads are used or a BIG cam is used a bit more is possible , this is base on a Carbed Non computer controlled car , Electronic management allows for higher compression ratios , but you wont hurt anything with this formula
 
Alright thanks guys,

Would one way to bump it up would be to get the machinist to get the chamber size smaller while all the other work is getting done on it? on the calculator, chambers at 48cc would give me a CR of 8.95 : 1. Id rather be on the higher side slightly than the lower.

the cam is a 264/264 112*lobe center clay smith

Am i misunderstanding something in this page from CI, it says The ideal DCR range for a performance motor on pump gas is 7.5 to 8.4

http://www.classicinlines.com/200Z.asp

Im 570ft above sea level, so I dont see that causing problems..

THanks,
Lee
 
FalconSedanDelivery":b7ppqkc7 said:
A simple formula that is SAFE , and assumes the timing curve is optimized is to slide the decimal point , one place to the right ,example 87 octane 8.7-1 , 93 octane 9.3 -1 and so on if aluminum heads are used or a BIG cam is used a bit more is possible , this is base on a Carbed Non computer controlled car , Electronic management allows for higher compression ratios , but you wont hurt anything with this formula


That's it, exactly!. Proof need?


See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66827

Our Thick Film Ignitioned and alloy head 4.1 Falcons went from 9.35:1 to 8.6:1 compression when we switched from 93 AKI leaded to 87 AKI unleaded in 1986. The Research Octane ratings were 97 octane for leaded gas, and 91 for regular unleaded gas.

From 1996 to 2011 in various Fords, there was the 205 to 207 hp an electronically manaaged 4.0liter Explorer/Ranger/Mustang SOHC with iron heads. It could easily and safely run its 9.7:1 compression ratio, and can run 87 AKI with ease.

Running EDIS, EECV, and ODB2 allowed ignition timing to be made to the nearest half degree.

If you are looking at working the limit, by a GM or Ford knock sensor, and hook up a spark retard system, thats what our EEV IV 1986 to 1991 carb and EFI alloy head Fords ran in 3.3 and 4.1 liter versions, and it allowed an insane amount of advance and very good miles per gallon on peanut grade 87AKI fuel ( our 91 octane). The sensors can be run 4.9 F150 style in the side of the block, or Oz 200/250 style by screwing into the 1/4" NPT part of the front head bolt. The later EEC IV Aussie OHC engines followed 4.9 F150/E350 practice, but there are adjustable set ups around that can interface with a more fully managed igntion set up, like the HEI or TFI converted Duraspark modules. That will avoid leaving too much on the table.


I know FSD has done all this electronic stuff before, but paraphrasing what he has said in his many posts is that if he thought more than just properly gone over ignition would yield automotive nirvana, he'd recomend every car have a knock sensor, but he doesn't because just reworking a stock Duraspark to suit the real engine tune is the best first step.

95% of us miss doing the first step. FSD's recomendation is the best...it won't ever get you in trouble.
 
merccomet":mxfkm7o9 said:
Alright thanks guys,

Would one way to bump it up would be to get the machinist to get the chamber size smaller while all the other work is getting done on it? on the calculator, chambers at 48cc would give me a CR of 8.95 : 1. Id rather be on the higher side slightly than the lower.

the cam is a 264/264 112*lobe center clay smith

Am i misunderstanding something in this page from CI, it says The ideal DCR range for a performance motor on pump gas is 7.5 to 8.4

http://www.classicinlines.com/200Z.asp

Im 570ft above sea level, so I dont see that causing problems..

THanks,
Lee

DCR= dynamic compression, which is different from static compression. static compression is easily measured and calculated just by crunching numbers. the dynamic compression can also be calculated, but it is a bit more difficult. dynamic compression refers to the cylinder pressure the running engine sees once every variable has been added in, from valve timing, to cylinder leak down, to ignition timing, to piston head design, to combustion chamber design, etc. dynamic compression is lower than static compression.
 
We have to relearn what Detriot learned very expensively in about 1977 when Ford opted out of doing high compression stratified charge i4 and V8 engines. Today, when we fiddle with our 170, 200 and 250 cubic inch engines, we have to use the knowledge of Dynamic Compression Ratio. Back in the late 70's, the ditched development work Honda and Ford USA did on a variant that became the overhead valve High Swirl Combustion 2300 four cylinder engine was all about how much compression you could generate with an aggressive spark advance curve. A foundational part was that Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR), using seat to seat specs for Intake timing specifications.

See http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php, and put in the stock 240 duration or 256 degree duration Ford Motor Company Inlet Valve Closes After Bottom Dead Center figures with the stock 22 thou thick gasket and stock combustion chamber volume. That is the minimum amount of Dynamic compression you should have. As you go up in Inlet Valve Closes ABDC, the amount of Static compression goes up. There is a limit to how much compression increase you can tollerate, at that point, if you can't raise the Anti Knock Index of the fuel from 87 to 93 or 95 or 100, then you have to start special engine tune management techniques like knock sensors, strain gages, engine fuel verses ignition mapping "fuzzy logic" like Mitsubishi does on its 2005 3.8 V6 or mixture motion work like the 1980 onwards Raymnond Mays Jag HE, 1981 Porsche 944 TOP, 1984 Ford HSC, 1985 to 1991 3.3 or 4.1 Alloy Head Falcon, 1986 US Fox Mustang GT 5.0 EFI or 1996 on Chevy Generation 3 LS1 style engines. These engines ran very high compression ratios by inducing mixture motion into the cylinders, and then ran a special fuel and igntion management system to look after total ignition advance. Jaguar, Porsche, Ford and GM started down the line of high swirl to avoid going to higher octane fuel, its the same thing Mike W's Classic Inlines head used in its engineering. Extra paddle wheel mixture motion on the intake allows you to run higher compression. Honda and Ford worked on this when they looked at the Stratified Charge Four cylinder engine in 1976, but Ford opted out when it realise how tight the production tollerenaces were going to have to be to build the engines. Honda decided to go it alone with its CVCH 1602 cc Accord and 1335 cc Civic engines, and also did some extra work for the Australians in the late seventies to make the first X-flow alloy Falcon 3.3 and 4.1 cylinder head in 1980.


That dynamic compression figure above from the stock engine, is best based on a 256 degree cams valve closing event. It is the one to preserve. If your cam goes up in duration, the static compression ratio can go up a large amount to preserve the stock dynamic compression ratio. So a 300 degree cam with 40/80 timing can cope with a 10.5 to compression ratio, but still have no more dynamic compression than a stock 200 or 3.3 1981 engine with a 256 cam with 22/54 timing and 8.4:1 compression. That Dynamic compression ratio calculation figure given is very important.

You can do even more than just reading it, you can tune some aggresively timed engines and still run it on pump gas. Like this little 11.04 seconds at 134 mph, 487 hp, 29.3 mpg Civic with 11.2:1 compression, M62 supercharger. The company director who owned it back then was from Endyn, and it shows you what can be done if you raise cam timing only enough to preserve dynamic compression. Not only does it have that 11.2:1 static compression on pump gas...it is supercharged with boost variable from12 pounds to 27 depending on operating conditions.

See http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/ ... _civic_si/

The key to working the tollerances on the Ford six is the same with as any engine. Fact is, dynamic compression figures and Knock sensor tuning are what Ford US and Australia have used knock sensors from 1981 and 1986 respectviely. That little 1989 Civic Si above uses a GM knock sensor to retard timing a massive 20 degrees total on what was there anytime it picks up piezo induced knock.

The tuner should know, he got busted for using a knock sensor in NASCAR...http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/ ... to_13.html
 
Would one way to bump it up would be to get the machinist to get the chamber size smaller while all the other work is getting done on it? on the calculator, chambers at 48cc would give me a CR of 8.95 : 1. Id rather be on the higher side slightly than the lower. the cam is a 264/264 112*lobe center clay smith

Yes you could do that "cut the chamber size down", however the very best way to do it would be to go to a zero deck height. IE Cut the block deck to get piston at the top of the block or in some cases the piston is above the block some. This gives you a tighter quench area the optimum is from .035 to .060. An engine that is using the steel rods and turns 6200 RPM or less can even use as tight as a .032 quench. With a .050 head gasket you would be near the max at zero deck height. Then cut your head and match the chambers to get to your desired CR. With careful tuning (make sure you have your distributor custom curved) you can run that compression Good luck
 
Ya, wish I knew about the zero deck earlier, but Im just gonna run with how it is, being just a mild build Im cool with it.

Any head gaskets that crush less than 0.050"? Other than that I will just have to take a few cc's from the chamber,

And when it comes to ignition, from the reading Ive done I will probly go with the DSII setup and I cant recall who but have someone do the custom curving to it, I want that part to be as good as it could be instead of popping one in and calling it good, definitely will be going over that more later on.

Thanks,
Lee
 
merccomet":17koalhd said:
Any head gaskets that crush less than 0.050"? Other than that I will just have to take a few cc's from the chamber,

And when it comes to ignition, from the reading Ive done I will probly go with the DSII setup and I cant recall who but have someone do the custom curving to it, I want that part to be as good as it could be instead of popping one in and calling it good, definitely will be going over that more later on.

Thanks,
Lee

If you hunt a little you can sometimes find a Ford nos steel shim head gasket they are about .022 to .025 that would be very good combo. I think there are a few company's that still make custom copper head gaskets in different thicknesses. :thumbup: excellent getting the ignition right will help you get all the power your engine is capable of.
 
I found a place called copper gaskets unlimited and Im not sure if I can get one yet but they have many thicknesses for me theres either 0.021" or 0.032". How much would the copper head gaskets crush? it doesnt say these are the crushed thicknesses, what do u guys think.


With the 52 cc chambers, I get a CR of 9.09:1 for the 0.021" and 8.87:1 with the 0.032". Should I see if
I can get the 0.032 or the 0.021". The head surface will probly be machined so it straight again so maybe the 0.032 would be better. At 51 cc the 0.032 gives a CR of 8.98:1.

Lee
 
Is your block deck straight or been machined? The copper doesn't crush so go by its thickness another good thing about copper is they are reusable. :nod:
 
Are you sure you do not want to go the extra step and deck the block? It may be a bit more work, but I think it would be better to address the issue rather than minimizing the problem; no?
 
It has been machined straight.. he said he just shaved off the a couple high spots,, give update on head gasket when I can.

good to know about the copper gaskets, thanks

Lee
 
heres a post i allways put up when the question of quench(squish) comes up :

not saying you need 10:1 and 32 thou quench - but getting correct quench

and minmise your squish (quench in USA)dimension to 0.040"

read this series of posts by falcon 60 on setting up his squish (quench) dimension at 0.037" and 10:1 on 87-and road test results

viewtopic.php?t=38301&highlight=

my understanding -as never used them - is copper gaskets will give you sealing problems - and weeps for a road car.
. your mileage may vary - but guess there is good reason why they are not used universaly in the auto industry
 
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