223cid Slow revving problem...

[59F100]

Just curious...my 223 seems to rev awfully slow and chokes a little when I "goose" it (in neutral). Granted, I have a little 1bbl (looks like a Holley 1904, see pics in my "newb with a 59F100" post) but it seems like it ought to be a little snappier.

All valves adjusted to 0.012", dwell is set at 37 degrees, and I dont know what the timing is. Currently, I set it for maximum rpms (advanced it and retarded it until I found max revs). I have not played with the carb too much other than setting the idle mixture screw at 1.5 turns out and setting the idle around 600-700 rpm.

The last time I drove it, it would accelerate fine with light throttle, but if I gave it too much throttle, it didn't like it. It would cough and hesitate.

Do they just rev slower than V8's ? or is something out of tune here? Procedure for tuning the carb? All opinions welcome.

-Kevin

Edit: My vacuum advance is currently not connected. As for the carb, I may have a port open that should be plugged? See pic below...

 

[CoupeBoy]

1. I love the picture
2. you absolutely must plug all vacuum holes

The 1bbl does not let the i6 wind up quite as fast as a 289 with a 4bbl, but I've ridden in a tri-powered 200 and believe me you can overcome that issue when these motors can breath.

I don't know if your slow revving is normal or not (sorry)
-ron

 

[59F100]

Thanks for the reply and glad you liked the picture. I wasn't sure if that ought to be plugged or not since it didn't seem to make a difference with how it idled.

 

[bobenhotep]

the 223 uses a vacuum only distributor. that open port you got there is where all of your spark advance comes from! hook it up and it will work better. carbs seem to be an issue with the 223. if you go duraspark plus a 2 bbl it will go good!!!

 

[59F100]

the 223 uses a vacuum only distributor. that open port you got there is where all of your spark advance comes from! hook it up and it will work better. carbs seem to be an issue with the 223. if you go duraspark plus a 2 bbl it will go good!!!

All of the spark advance? As in there is no mechanical advance?

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Kevin:

There is no mechanical reason an engine with a one barrel can't rev as quickly as any other engine of similar tune. THe advice to plug all vacuum hole is first rate. I think you stumble on acceleration is a faulty accelerator pump system- either the accelerator pump is worm or the channels are plugged. In either case a rebuild kit and a thorough cleaning is the solution.

The open hole near the top, I believe is the choke vacuum pull-off override. It could create a vacuum leak on cold start while using the choke. The vacuum signal from the SCV to the L-O-M distributor should be down lower, near the SCV itself. It should absolutely be connected to the vacuum canister on the distributor. Without load sensitive advance of the timing, you will not be getting full power of best economy. IF, for some reason, you cannot get your SCV/L-O-M system working as designed you can crutch the performance by using a little more initial advance then usual.

Finally, setting your low speed idle screw a 1.5 turns out is a good starting position. Tune it just like you did the initial advance setting of the distributor. With the engine warmed up and at an idle slowly turn it in until rpms drop, then out until highest rpm/smoothest idle is achieved. Be sure to reduce the idle speed after you're satisfied.

That should get you a little farther down the road.

Adios, David

 

[bobenhotep]

that hole in the carb is in fact the distributor port. it connects to a venturi hole then to the scv. it is your spark advance (look it up on oldcarmanual.com). vacuum only! you can indeed rev quick with a 1 bbl, but after doing the 2 bbl I dont plan on going back...

 

[fmartin_gila]

Go up on the forum page and find the small six stuff, there is a very good explanation of how the LOM system works. It does look like your accel pump rod is already set to the winter position, so if that isn't enough, you may have a leaky check valve and not getting a full injection.

Fred

 

[59F100]

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

I just read the two sticky posts in the "small block" forum about spark control and the load-o-matic. I must admit, it's a very interesting read. I have never heard of a strictly vacuum based spark advance set-up.

So....I am gonna re-connect that vacuum line and get on there with a timing light (now that I found the timing mark). Does the LOM advance timing under "no load" (i.e. in neutral) or what?

How do you calibrate or troubleshoot this set-up to make sure it is functioning?

 

[59F100]

Just read an article here...

http://www.m571.com/yblock/loadomatic.htm

The result is that soggy acceleration that Load O Matics are noted (notorious?) for.

notorious?

 

[fmartin_gila]

I guess everybody is entitled to their own opinion. As I have stated in the past, My 223 doesn't have blazing acceleration, but is very adequate. I did note in one of your pics that the accel pump rod is in the winter position, you might try it in the summer position to inject a bit IF it seems to be trying to flood while accelerating. They are not notorious for being sluggish, JMHO.

Fred

 

[fmartin_gila]

Kevin,

Just thought of something else, is there a chance you are not getting full opening of the butterfly when the pedal is at full travel. Lay a brick or something on the pedal to hold it full down and then look to ensure the throttle butterfly is fully open.

Fred

 

[59F100]

Fred,

Definitely getting full travel on the butterfly. I'll try to swap positions on the acc pump linkage.

To try and clarify, if I bring the revs up, and start goosing the throttle, it seems to rev just fine and is pretty responsive. It is just slow on the lower end of the rpm scale. No "bottom end grunt". That may very well be the excess fuel pump shot bogging it down. Could also be due to my timing advance set-up not operating properly.

Soon as I can get back on it, I will post some results and proceed from there. Thanks to all for your help!

-Kevin

 

[manglass]

If the truck still has the stock ignition and you haven't already done so, you might want to check the points. If they are burned, pitted, or out of adjustment due to rubbing block wear it will mimic a faulty accelerator pump. It could also be due to the lack of advance as has already been pointed out. Best of luck with it. Let us know what you find.

Lou Manglass

 

[59F100]

Well, I made the vacuum line from the carb to the vac advance out of rigid tube and now I have vacuum advance.

After searching for and finally locating the timing marks, I got the timing down to about 7 BTDC.

There is no advance at idle.

Revving, the vacuum will supply about another 8-9 degrees advance from what I can see (best guess, the last mark is 10 degs).

Little change in performance. It still bogs when you give it more than a moderate amount of throttle. I could not get the acc pump linkage into the other position to decrease the size of the pump shot. Visuually, it is getting a good squirt.

I tried with the acc pump disconnected, results were less than stellar. Pretty much acted the same.

So.... here is the recap:
Fuel pump, points, cap, rotor, condenensor, new new new... dwell set around 37 degrees. Timing set at 7 BTDC (was extremely advanced when I first found the timing marks....this after previously setting it by ear for highest rpm). Vaccum advance seems to work providing about 8 degs more off idle. Acc pump providing a good shot. Mixture screw turned in until rpms drop, then backed out for highest smooth rpm. NOTE: 1.5 turns seems about right, anything past that has no effect on engine (didnt know if that was significant or not).

When warm, I can reach in the driver door and turn the key and it will start every time.

This thing has no power whatsoever. It can barely get itself going so something is terribly wrong and I am not sure where to go next. It should not choke and die when you put your foot down on the floor. Something very basic is wrong here and I am not catching it.

 

[Drumhead_Dan]

I had a similar issue trying to get this 223 in my truck lined out. You can try advancing the timing just a degree or two at a time(Ford says after five degrees you're not gaining any more power or fuel economy, but I assume that up to five degrees out is fine by them). The harmonic balancers can slip and throw all of that timing out, so don't go entirely by that, even the Ford manual says you pretty much have to set them by driving up a hill. Make sure the vacuum advance can is good, and your new piping is not leaking past anywhere. I used a vacuum pump hooked to the distr. to use an outside vacuum source and watched the timing marks as I applied it. From my best guess at full advance you should be around 30 degrees BTDC. Make sure your advance plate turns freely, and that there are no vacuum leaks around the carb and intake. Also, you need to have your air cleaner in place. You can use your timing light on all six plug wires to make sure you're hitting on all six, they can run on three and not sound that bad. I think your vacuum on the distr. side of the carb shouldn't be more than 5-7, you can check that too.

Edit: I think the initial timing should be 2 to 4 degrees without the distr. hooked up.

 

[59F100]

...Make sure the vacuum advance can is good, and your new piping is not leaking past anywhere. .... From my best guess at full advance you should be around 30 degrees BTDC. Make sure your advance plate turns freely, and that there are no vacuum leaks around the carb and intake. Also, you need to have your air cleaner in place. You can use your timing light on all six plug wires to make sure you're hitting on all six, they can run on three and not sound that bad. I think your vacuum on the distr. side of the carb shouldn't be more than 5-7, you can check that too.

Edit: I think the initial timing should be 2 to 4 degrees without the distr. hooked up.

Vacuum advance can/diaphragm is good, no leaks...Motors manual says 4 BTDC and anywhere from 3-11 degrees advance based on rpm and load. I will double check but I dont think I am getting 11 dregrees.... about 8-9 max.

I do NOT currently have an air cleaner to put on this thing but I dont think that is the root of all my problems.

Incidentally, I just went out and started it up, cold day, sitting all night, and it fired up on the first try

Couple more things I want to do... one, install new plugs. Mine are getting oil (?) fouled (bad rings?) and the #1 was missing quite a bit last night. It does not blow hardly ANY blue smoke cold or hot so I dont know. And also a compression test. Maybe that will yield some more useful information.

I really need to get this thing road worthy so I can start driving it.

 

[59F100]

Oh yeah... It looks GREAT with the brand new tires... went with black walls, 255/60R15 and they are just about the perfect size, zero clearance issues. I will post a picture soon.

 

[Drumhead_Dan]

The 64 Truck manual says:

@Distributor RPM | Degrees Of Advance | Inches of Mercury
500|1.25-2.25|.3
800|5.25-6.25|.8
1200|7.25-8.25|1.51
1600|9-10.25|3.10
2000|10-11.25|4.2

Redline should be 14.75 Degrees

The confusing thing is that the Distributor RPM is listed, but I don't know if the distributor test stands are set up for distributor advance or crankshaft advance. I thought distributor, but I might be wrong. I'm not getting the correct advance limit, so mine swings way around the crank when I watch a timing light. Mine also likes to have a good long warmup with just a touch of choke, but fires up nicely. The loadomatic system uses vacuum from the top of the carb. Mine runs noticibly different with the air cleaner on.

 

[59F100]

The 64 Truck manual says:

@Distributor RPM | Degrees Of Advance | Inches of Mercury
500|1.25-2.25|.3
800|5.25-6.25|.8
1200|7.25-8.25|1.51
1600|9-10.25|3.10
2000|10-11.25|4.2

Redline should be 14.75 Degrees

The confusing thing is that the Distributor RPM is listed, but I don't know if the distributor test stands are set up for distributor advance or crankshaft advance. I thought distributor, but I might be wrong. I'm not getting the correct advance limit, so mine swings way around the crank when I watch a timing light. Mine also likes to have a good long warmup with just a touch of choke, but fires up nicely. The loadomatic system uses vacuum from the top of the carb. Mine runs noticibly different with the air cleaner on.

Thanks Dan. I'll see about getting an air cleaner for it. If you are running the one-barrel, what kind of air cleaner do you have?

Are those vac readings taken on the vac advance line?

Curious, what kind of fitting do you have on the carb for the load-o-matic vac lines?