250 2V N/A performance mods

TCSTEVE

Well-known member
G'day ive got a TC cortina wagon its been a good car to me so i want to rebuild it.
Its got a 250 2V in it and ill be running a 4 speed single rail and standard lsd diff.
Ive looked through other posts about 2Vs but im still a little unsure on what mods to do.
Its got oversized pacemakers and a 2 1/4 exhaust and a 350 holley but thats got to go and im looking a getting low 13's from the car but i dont want a 4.11 diff.
Any advice you can give would be great.
 
Okay brother, here's the low down from an 'analyse this' perspective. Please feel free to screw it up and use it as loo paper if you like....

The key is getting

a) the right power to weight ratio,

b) and then an axle ratio that allows the car to race through the traps at the end of the quarter mile at maximum revs for your engine combination.

Since you've ruled out 4.11:1 gears, this limits things a bit. I'll assume a 3.7:1 ratio from a Four-cylinder is the lowest ratio you want to use.

Example:

For a 2600 pound Cortina Six, you need a good 250 hp to do a 13.0 second quarter mile at 105 mph with you in the hot seat.

The maximum safe rpm for a 250 2v without massive modifiications to the sump, valve gear and internals is 5400 rpm, according to ex Ford engineers, and Kevin Bartlett (from Street Machine 1990, and 1995). This engine, because of its short rods and long stroke, hits a wall at about 4800 rpm.

The biggest wheels you can use and still tour the streets are 225/60 13's or similar. At 105 mph, that would need a 3.50:1 diff to haul trough the traps at near full revs. So as long as you've got a combo that gives 250 hp at 4900 rpm at the very least, and take it an another 500 rpm to 5400 rpm, then you'll do it.

Now how to get it!

Option One:-

I'd say to do this, you'd need to get a special grind cam from Wade, Crow, Speco Thomas, C.O.M.E, Kelford etc. You need to tell them what you wan't, and they'll tell you what combo of parts will be needed. If you want to use a stock intake manifold, you'll need a race preped 500 cfm 2-bbl with over siize throttle butterflies, and a fly cut venturi 62.5 thou bigger in both. Barry Grant sells them, and they are good for 290 hp.

Optionally, you could risk a very special cam grind that allows the 500 cfm carb to produce large scavanging ability, by limiting exhast flow at lifts above 350 thou or so. An example was given in a recent Hot Rod mag. But listen mate, your pushing a really fine envelope, and I've not seen it done on a six.

Whatever, you need a great cam, excellent exhast, top notch US/Aussie or similar valve sizes with inserts (1.76" intake, and whatever the biggest exhast valves you can find that fit in the head without taking out the water jacket or cracking the margin between each valve). Then you need a optimised ignition and better rod bolts and timing gears.

Its possible but this is expensive stuff, because to produce one hp per cube so low in the rev range takes a perfect camshaft.

You'd use a 3.5:1 diff ratio for this combo, or a 2.77:1 and take max revs in third at the quarter.

Option Two: Build the engine to rev to 5900 to 6000 rpm, spend on roller rockers, really good stock rods, or splash out on items like pened 3.3 Aussie 6.275"rods, or 6.06" AU rods, then knitt the up with ACL pistons. Hey, its only money. Then you'll need a Cortina spec High Energy Sump with a scraper and windage tray made up to control the torrent of oil at those revs. And look at going solid lifter or getting a real good hydraulic cam. Grab the cam, carb and exhast, and there an easy 250 hp at 5400 rpm hiding, no risk. Sorry buddy, you have to run 3.9 or 3.7:1 diff gears, and grab ear plugs for the cruise home. The other option, is going 2.92 or 2.77:1, and hold on to third at the end of the quarter.

Option Three: Nitrous oxide and a 500 Holley. Simple. Just use a 100 hp boost of funny gas, and build the engine to take it. Won't have to rev it past 4800 rpm, and you can use 3.23:1 gears and rev through the traps in top.

Back to your regular program...
 
Cheers XECUTE that info helps heaps.
How much do you think i'd be looking at for an engine similar to that, i'm willing to spend a bit of money on it.
 
TCSTEVE,

Have you considered a turbo setup??

You can easily get low 13 to 12 second passes without too much money. Even a small TO3 turbo can get you these results.

All you do is reco your standard engine using low comp pistons and spend your money on the turbo gear. You can leave standard valves and cam!
Most parts can be picked up on the cheap through swap meets and trading post.

The big advantage you have is that you don't have to rev your engine above 5000rpm and you can use 2.78 diff ratio for special top end performance.

I done this many years ago to my TD cortina with a standard engine and T03. My setup was very cheap! - I used a "J" pipe connected to the flange of the standard exhaust manifold. You can do better than this..of course.

The performance of the car was in the 13's using a single SU carby of a sigma.

Then again, you can do everythig the right way (Expensive!) and end up with a wheelspin monster that will last forever. The advantage of getting good quality turbo manifolds and stuff made up is that they last longer than the engine!! So, if the engine explodes, you still have all the accessories that make it go hard!!

Don't listen to me..I am biased towards turbo's.

Have fun!!
 
George, you is onto somthing big. A turbo will make all the power your engine can handle!


I just ran through an on-line programe:-

http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html

for building a screamer with out a hairdryer.

Rough Horsepower Calculator by Bowling and Grippo
Engine Displacement (CID) is 250
Mean Compression ratio is 11.5 Engine Revolutions Per Minute is 4900
Computation Results:
Computed Engine HP is 256 (212 with 9.5:1 comp)

You'd need a octane booster or 50/50 methonal/water injection to run this baby on the street.

Reving to 5400 rpm,

Rough Horsepower Calculator by Bowling and Grippo
Engine Displacement (CID) is 250
Mean Compression ratio is 10.5
Engine Revolutions Per Minute is 5400
Computation Results:
Computed Engine HP is 258 (233 hp with 9.5:1 comp)

Same applies. Octane booster is needed.


There you go. Nice when it comes from some-one else.

Off course, that Turbo thing is a cool idea...
 
Clean up exhaust ports, use 1.78/1.5 inch Windsor valves cut down, dont enlarge the intake ports, just clean up and blend valve seat to bigger valve. Exhaust needs as much help as it can get, divide centre port and use headers with 1.5 or 1.625 pipes , split system into two, make sure its all free flow.
Use a mechanical tappet cam of around 290 derees and 220 or so at 0,05, keep lift to less than 12mm or your smash up the valve train.
Get rid of your brake booster and run triple 45mm dellortos.
I dont think youll be able to get 250bhp on anything than this.
Keep your CR down to 9.5 or so, use the 200 rods with ACL pistons.
Dont worry about thebottom end it will be OK, just make sure its all up to scratch, a windage tray and baffles in the sump, with a bit of extra capacity is good, the stock oil pump is fine.
Run electronic ignition and use centrifugal only.
This should give you near too 250bhp and will be very torquey, so you should need to rev up much over 5500rpm, so get the appropriate axle ratio and tyre size for that, probaly 3.32 or so.

A7M
 
Hi XECUTE,


I think I need therapy!! I didn't read the topic "N/A Performance"....I think it may be my high blood pressure (or boost!) :oops:

My idea for a high performance 250 is to build and engine that produces heaps of torque with a mild cam and gears that take advantage of this.
Years ago we tried different gear ratios ranging from 2.7 to 3.55:1 and found very little advantage in using anything above 3.23:1.

I am suprised to see people sugesting gear ratios of over 3.7:1 for a 250?? Has anyone tested these ratios on the track??

NOS??? Yes Please!!

A 250HP N/A 250 in a cortina....Yum Yum... + 200HP Hit of gas?? NICE!!

bye
 
I like the sound of NOS for improving 1/4 mile times but want to keep the car N/A as its going to be a street legal? daily driver.
Just want to blow off all the pretty little $80,000 monaro and HSV's with a N/A 6, and if 250 HP plus will get it then i know what to aim for thanks!
 
George (of the jungle?)
Years ago we tried different gear ratios ranging from 2.7 to 3.55:1 and found very little advantage in using anything above 3.23:1.

Yeah, Bob Pinnelli from Capri/Cortina V8's said the same thing for cars with manuals. Gear it up to 3.5 or even lower numerically to make up for traction. Below 3.5:1 (3.7, 3.9, 4.11) the car starts getting impractical for the street. In Kiwi land, down in the south, our tracks have lots of rubber on the road, and its silly to go really low because of traction. But the four-link rear can hook up very well, and a six with a manual if possibly over geared at the end of the quarter. The Bob Pinnelli rule was to haul trough the finish beam at full noise, full revs.

But George, a turbo will smeach a set of bags faster than a roasting rat...I'd just be running a tall ratio to dull the effect of all that torque.
 
Found this on the link Jim (80broncoman) gave.

Nice work Jim, it varifies a formula I've used for gear ratio selection for years. I'm delighted.

http://www.nationaldrivetrain.com/calcs/dragcalc.html


Just dump in the info on the blue, and it gives the info on the red. We were working through it on the Drivetrain section. I was looking at an XE Falcon with a log headed 200 cube engine with about 7000 rpm top, power to 6500 rpm of 263 hp, and a set of 265/50x15 tyres

Vehicle Weight (in pounds): 3600 (all up in a utility truck)
Vehicle Horsepower: (263hp)
RPM through lights (finish line): (7000rpm)
Tire Diameter (Hght.) in Inches: (25.43 inches)


1/4 Mile ET: (13.27 sec)
1/4 Mile Top End Speed: (98.03 mph)
Ideal 1/4 Mile Gear Ratio: :arrow: (5.40:1)
1/8 Mile ET:
(8.45 sec's or mph?not calulated properly)

Great thing is, with a 0.67:1 top, you can drive it home like its a 3.61:1 diff ratio car, and cruise at 60 mph, doing about 2900 rpm.

I'm really thinking that perhaps the 9" diff's optional 5.4:1 ratio is the way to go!

Go an work it out for your car. Cortina tyres hook in at 22.7 to 23.7" tall.


Bowling and Grippo do one as well, but you have to put in slightly different data. MustangSixhas been looking after us!

http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html
 
XECUTE went to that link the calculators great but the vehicle horsepower field must be HP at the wheels right? or am i wrong?
 
No brother, its net flywheel horse power. If you want rear wheel horsepower (rwhp), just divide the net flywheel figure by 1.26 for a manual, 1.33 for an auto.

The net hp is the same as what you'd find in a modern car.

Eg, an EFI 4.1 XE had a rev limit of 4800 rpm, and had power at 4000 rpm. Using the program which inputs engine cubes, compression and rpm, (found at http://www.bgsoflex.com/roughhp.html) this gives 160 hp, or 119 kW. In practice, the engine had 149 hp or 111 kW. In a car weighing in at about 3560 pounds as tested with two people. With a 2.92:1 diff ratio and 4-speed, a 16.9 second quater at about 80 mph.

Bear in mind most track conditions and engines are never dyno tuned or optimised to the ideal traction, jetting, ignition or power levels.

With just 221 hp (165kw) a 1992 XR6 Falcon can lay 15.2 second quarters at almost 90 mph all day with 3767 pounds of car an a 3.45:1 diff. Because Ford got the gearing and engine specs perfect from the get go.


I know you can prove anything with numbers, but a true flywheel Hp figure will tell you all you need to know about a cars performance potential.

Drag racing has gone from a He-man art form to an exact science. [/b]
 
OK heres some simulations from Quarter junior and engine analayser.
Corty of 2950lbs with 252ci 250-2v head with BW single rail (3.06 first gear) and 3.5 axle on 13inch wheels will go 13.85 with 225bhp and 13.45 with 250bhp.
The 250-2v needs modified head with 289 valves and exhaust porting, stock intake and 550cfm carby, 36/76 cam with 220 degrees at 0.050 0.48 lift, tuned headers no mufflers to get 225bhp @5500rpm.
An extra 10bhp can be had with triples, but much better torque as well.
So try that.
A7m
 
Firstly thanks as i now know what flywheel horsepower to look for when i go to the engine builders (still looking not many old school 250 guys in Adelaide)
and iv'e noticed that you guys say to leave the inlet ports of a 2V head standard. I've never had my head off my car and was wondering why you say this?
Also is there any advantage in work on the combustion chambers or raising the compression of a 250 2V?
I'd like to run a 3.2lsd for more cruising as my standard 2.9 diff gets the car up to 200km/h just and the motor's tired and desperatley requires a rebuild and i'll probally use 14 or 15inch rims to help combat wheel spin.
So i'd probally need 270 HP or more with this diff ratio for a low 13sec pass, is this possible with a total rebuild of the motor as i'm willing to spend on this car to get the results i'm after and it's gotta go faster than my old one which ran 13.5 1/4mile in street form.
Thanks Steve
 
As Aussie7mains said, he thinks 235 hp is a streatch with the engine even with a set of triple DCOE Webers. Be carefull!

I have seen a Cortina six do low 13's before, but its too much to ask for 270 hp unless you go full on. A7M has had years dealing with this.

As for the ports, 42 mm is up 9 mm on a set of XE ports, and like all post 1960 and pre 1979 performance Falcon engines, they are way too big stock. This includes 2000 cc Cortinas, 351 4V's, early cross flows, all of the 302C 2V's were still very big in intake runner cc.

Camshaft designers know all this too. Any engine over 1 HP PER cube is an expesive proposition. To go to 270 hp is a huge step up. Don't get too greedy.

A 2003 182 dohc Barra does it form the factory. 244 hp from 242 cubes. With a tare mass of 1650 kilos it does 15.5 second quarters with a 5-speed. In a 1220 kg car, with 90 kg's of driver, thats enough for 13.3 seconds or so. Just what you need. It revs to 6000 rpm, has power up to about 5000 rpm or so.

You need to be darn carefull that you have funds to hit 270 hp. My calcs say a set of 45mm Webers with 40 mm chokes will run out at about 300 hp or so unless you have a super good cam, roller rockers and a gasflowed exhast system. The 250 2V suffers here, in the exhast. The extra revs and exhast work , and wilder cam, are going to make you need a 4-speed auto or T5 5-speed gearbox. The streetablity is the key. Then the pistons and rods need to be ACL's and post 1971 3.3/200 items.

I'd be supprised if you could get 270 hp at 5300 rpm easily. Unless you carried the engineers approval, the wollapers would defect a triple carbed 250 Cortina. I'd say a full-on 500 cfm Holley or Barry Grant carbed car doing 250 hp is it. After that, you have to do a deal with the Chemical Brothers and get nitrous, get an auto, and take it to the drags. Or turbo it!
 
OK cheers again youve given me a lot of ideas.
I've considered a BA motor or at least a EL motor with a it of work done to it.
I want the car to remain stock as it's realy original and 30 years old just go like a shower of shit.
I'ts definately a daily driver as i love the car had it as a daily for a year and a half and its a wagon so i need it for the band as well.
the 2V is in master moved back and all and iv'e driven straight pass turbo WRX's at 160km/h the best feeling pretty good for a car i paid $1500 for and did nothing but kill it and several sets of tyres.
Deservent of a rebuild? i think so anyway cheers for your help iv'e got alot more research to do.
Thanks Steve
 
Aussie 7 mains
I remmember a previous post where you said a 500 Holley is not very successful with a cammed 250 2V and OK with a stocker.
(I am curious) would you be able to give an estimate of the duration (50 deg) that the 500 Holley may become an issue.
My mate now has his working well with a duration of 208 at 50 but this is still fairly mild.
I dont like the idea of triples because of fuel economy (I could be convinced otherwise, 42 mm perhaps) (and how would you move the brake booster).
Should be able to do some serious mods "soon". Test over quarter and post finings.
 
Aussie 7 mains
Sorry mate, checked through some old posts and found your quote below. Only one question how would a 350 Holley with a 500 throttle perform. I like the idea excet that the cfm rating might still be a bit low. Im thinking that a modified 350 with slightly a enlarged bore with "similar mods to the 500 Holley Execute mentioned might be near perfect for around the 200 hp mark with much better low end responce.
Execute do they do this to the 350s any idea what the modified 500s cost to get a comparison ?

Quote: "Tim your 500 will work with the 220degree cams (about a 30-70) but it may be a bit too big and a 350 would be better, maybe something like a 350 venturi on a 500 throttle might be best compromise".
 
I'm not sure if increasing the throttle body diameter would sort out a carbs sensitivity to signal change, because I know didly squat about it. I'm okay with benchmark combos which are proven to work.

A 500 2-bbl is really cheap, about 45 bucks for a throttle body, about 250 for a good carb. Some guy get 'em for 50 bucks all up. So a 350 /500 hybrid should be easy.

I like A7M's ideas, as they are based on expreriance. I've never done a throttle body swap from 500 to 350.

I've been told the signal, or percentage reduction in cross section as air enters the carb, needs to be limited if the intake runner pulses are severe. What A7M suggests flies in the face of that somewhat.

The base 350 has around 26% restriction, (1.500/1.1875)
the 500 has 23%. (1.6875/1.375)
a 350 hybrid, with a 500 cfm throttle body, 42% (1.6875/1.1875) .

At this level, the carb starts making an intense signal which cannot suffer from reversion. I mean, the fuel is being litterally forced out of the float bowel like a Spaceman out of a black hole! I can't comment on how it idles or what it does to peak performance, only that it will be less than a straight 500.

I know that with 450 4-bbl 4360 Holleys, a 29% (1.375/1.0625) signal makes the carb impossible to tune with a long duration cam. It won't idle well at all.

David Vizard had 32/36 Webers fly cut to 30/31 chokes, up from 25/26's. This is 7% and 17%, so you can drop the venturi rate. I am unsure at what happens here also.

Remember, its choke size, not throttle size, that limits peak rpm.

The BG 500 is silly money, but its the only game in town for a 250 Cortina. A 4-bbl may be pushing it to fit without adding height, there can be fuel distribution problems if not placed 90 degrees and if it is there may be problems with float bowels during cornering.

So an expensive 2-bbl could be cheap in the long run.
 
Thanks Execute
If Ive got doupts about the 500 working well with a 220 degree cam I might end up taming it down a bit only because of this.
I was swayed by that post I put in the Tech section from Hotrod mag that a 224/234 at 50 with 114 lobe sep would be good, but not If my carb wont work with it.
Thanks again, Tim
 
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