3.661 bore for sleeves/pistons

[mike1157]

If there is anybody that should be "concerned", it's gotta be me. Now in w/ a total time invested of about 30+ hours in modifications to make this engine into something Ford never intended it to be, the final icing on the cake will be the 6 sleeves that will take the place of the worrn out, gouged existing bores. I will absolutely lose my proverbial S**T if this path turns out to be a folly.

Sourcing a good standard 250 is a pipe dream. While I'm sure that there are plenty of folks on here that are testimonials to the fact that they do in fact exist,....Down here in Alabama, I may as well go out to a farm,......find a haystack,....throw a needle in it, and then try to find it again.

I am confident I'd find that before I'd find a good standard 250 to use instead of my future sleeved Frank-n-block.

I am going to talk w/ melling here in about an hour to discuss getting my sleeve size in a better version,...as they offer do offer a flanged, ductile sleeve, just not in my bore size. At that time I'll ask them to share their thoughts about the process before I spend the approximately 700.00 for the better sleeves, and the labor to install them.

 

[bubba22349]

Pro Stock racer Dyno Don used to bore all his cylinders completely out of his 351C's blocks and install the biggest bore thick wall sleeves he could fit (i think they were 4.080 ID or more) afterwards he had the blocks furnace braised. Benefits were the blocks held up much better than stock blocks at the power levels he was making and he also got better valve flow due to larger bore size, cranks were destroked to bring the CID back to the 366 limit of the Pro Stock rules (mid to late 70's). Good luck

 

[mike1157]

Just spoke w/ C/S at Melling. Custom sleeves are definitly out. @ 165.00 ea. that is just not gonna happen. I'm presently waiting on a return phone call from their engineer to discuss my application.

I did learn from my first conversation that all Melling sleeves whether they be the HP, or the standard models, all are grey iron. There is something different in the hardness that makes the difference up, but the customer service guy said it wasn't made from ductile iron.

( matbe they just add some more sand to the mix :roll: )

Pro Stock racer Dyno Don used to bore all his cylinders completely out of his 351C's blocks and install the biggest bore thick wall sleeves he could fit (i think they were 4.080 ID
or more) afterwards he had the blocks furnace braised.

I do remember that Nicholson, Rousch, and Glidden all sleeved their Clevelands back in the 70's before there was such a thing as a Boss/Dart block. I do not, however have access to their money, or their furnaces to have anything more done to my junk after that however.


Thinking now that maybe I'll do a partial fill (maybe half ) w/ hard block after the sleeving process.
What do you guys think about that?

 

[mike1157]

Just got off the phone with the engineer at Melling. I'm totally behind the sleeving option with even the standard grade sleeve.

his response to trying to source a standard bore 250 instead?

" And all you have is a 40 year old block that has had any combination of water/ or antifreeze eating away at the backside of the cylinder, potentially weakening the stock integrity of that engine anyway. It used to be that people would sleeve one, or two cylinders to try and save an engine, now people are sleeving all six or eight cylinders because they have no choice anymore. Its done everyday now, all across the country w/ o any problems, you're going to be fine".

good enough for me.

 

[CNC-Dude]

It sounds like he is making his recommendations based on the assumption that this is just a simple old 6 cylinder that a grandpa is going to putt around town in. Did you tell him its going to be pushing over 400 HP. Hard-blok is going to be a must.

 

[mike1157]

It sounds like he is making his recommendations based on the assumption that this is just a simple old 6 cylinder that a grandpa is going to putt around town in. Did you tell him its going to be pushing over 400 HP. Hard-blok is going to be a must.

Nope, told him exactly what I was doing with this engine. That didn't phase him or change his recommendation though. Now I can't see that it'll hurt anything to partial fill nthe block for the sake of adding even more rigidity, so I believe that I'll be doin' that as well.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Yeah, im going to fill mine some also. I just pulled 400 HP out of the air, i'm guessing your expecting to reach or surpass that mark. It easily can.

 

[mike1157]

Yeah, im going to fill mine some also. I just pulled 400 HP out of the air, i'm guessing your expecting to reach or surpass that mark. It easily can.

What are you doing? Are we building similar engines, and you are using me for the Beta test?

I just posted on the other thread that Tigue has bronze gears, and is including two at my request to ship with the cam when finished.
It's gonna be more about torque for me than HP. Although I expect about 100 hp more, if the thing makes 350 whp I'll be good, as long as it makes 500+ RWTQ that starts somewhere around 2500 RPM.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Im doing a nitrous roller build. There is a couple of Oz crossflows that are making over 400 HP with no roller or any power adders, so I think you'll end up with more than you think.

 

[bubba22349]

My machinist buddy put in many sleeves for me he bored the block out but left a lip or step at bottom of the block to lock the sleeve in place. The head locks the top, never had a problem with any sleeve moving. Only block that I had all the cylinders sleeved back to standard was a Model A. I wonder if you could also weld the block deck to the sleeve with some Nickel Arc welding rod to stiffen up the deck?

 

[mike1157]

Im doing a nitrous roller build. There is a couple of Oz crossflows that are making over 400 HP with no roller or any power adders, so I think you'll end up with more than you think.

That is too much to even contemplate right now,....potential power.
I'm just trying to get a combination together that I can safely bank on whatever power I can milk out of it, tempered by being able to count on it to get me to Publix for bread, and milk whenever I want it to. 8)

 

[CNC-Dude]

Ah....true grocery getter!

 

[drag-200stang]

My thoughts on the hard block are:

My new build, I found a block that will clean up with .020 over. I am not doing devcon, hard block wasn't available then. I hard blocked the top and bottom to help seal the sleeves. Oil heated up alot faster, always hotter than the water. My thinking is that the hotter oil has to be coming from the hotter piston which can't be good for iron headed boosted engine. Maybe if only the bottom was done, it would have been better. New build I'd rather have a cooler piston and more boost. Of course, your issue is different.

I don't think I was very clear when I was talking about putting in too thick a sleeve. I'm not so concerned about the strength of the actual cylinder. If you have to bore so much that you disconnect the deck from the cylinder, which isn't hard to do with these thin walls, when you torque the head bolts down, the deck will pry up where it was connected to the cylinder. I think that's why they like the flanged sleeves. It keeps the bolt bosses from prying up. It acts like a lever to strengthen the boss. Squishy gaskets will let the deck move around more than let's say the copper gaskets. If the bosses pull up where the bolts are, you'll never contain your boosted pressures. Welding the sleeve to the deck will not work. BTDT. Another thing to think about is how much pressed fit. I did .003, I think it was too much. I've heard of people using .001. Research and a good machinist should get that right.

I think your best bet is using the thinner sleeves. Even standard sleeves are centrifugally cast and are alot stronger than the factory block. Just try to pick a sleeve that retains as much of the original cylinder as possible. Looks like there's all kinds of different sizes to pick from. Also, the sleeves are made rough finished. If your machinist is good, he should be able to leave it thicker than the advertised bore. There again, you need to see what you can do with the chambers you have. I assume that you're having custom pistons made being that you're using a stock rod. I would order the pistons to size after boring and then finish hone to fit. Then you'll know exactly what will give you the most strength. That'll leave some extra material for future clean-ups.

 

[mike1157]

My thoughts on the hard block are:

My new build, I found a block that will clean up with .020 over. I am not doing devcon, hard block wasn't available then. I hard blocked the top and bottom to help seal the sleeves. Oil heated up alot faster, always hotter than the water. My thinking is that the hotter oil has to be coming from the hotter piston which can't be good for iron headed boosted engine. Maybe if only the bottom was done, it would have been better. New build I'd rather have a cooler piston and more boost. Of course, your issue is different.

I don't think I was very clear when I was talking about putting in too thick a sleeve. I'm not so concerned about the strength of the actual cylinder. If you have to bore so much that you disconnect the deck from the cylinder, which isn't hard to do with these thin walls, when you torque the head bolts down, the deck will pry up where it was connected to the cylinder. I think that's why they like the flanged sleeves. It keeps the bolt bosses from prying up. It acts like a lever to strengthen the boss. Squishy gaskets will let the deck move around more than let's say the copper gaskets. If the bosses pull up where the bolts are, you'll never contain your boosted pressures. Welding the sleeve to the deck will not work. BTDT. Another thing to think about is how much pressed fit. I did .003, I think it was too much. I've heard of people using .001. Research and a good machinist should get that right.

I think your best bet is using the thinner sleeves. Even standard sleeves are centrifugally cast and are alot stronger than the factory block. Just try to pick a sleeve that retains as much of the original cylinder as possible. Looks like there's all kinds of different sizes to pick from. Also, the sleeves are made rough finished. If your machinist is good, he should be able to leave it thicker than the advertised bore. There again, you need to see what you can do with the chambers you have. I assume that you're having custom pistons made being that you're using a stock rod. I would order the pistons to size after boring and then finish hone to fit. Then you'll know exactly what will give you the most strength. That'll leave some extra material for future clean-ups.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate your contribution.
If I hard block the bottom, it'll only be somewhere between the bottom of the freeze plugs. I would use a good external engine oil cooler. The turbo will benefit from that as well.

Now that I think of it, seems better to do that now, before I take the block in for sleeving. What are the thoughts there?

A Melling CSL 1173 sleeve is just a tube of 3/32 wall cast iron, no flange. The head gasket I'm using is a custom piece from Cometic, I think it's going to me some MLS thing using tool steel in the center IDK that much about it yet.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Make sure you Hard-Blok the block before you have any machine work done and let it set up and cure for several days beforehand.

 

[mike1157]

Make sure you Hard-Blok the block before you have any machine work done and let it set up and cure for several days beforehand.

Good enough. I'll order the stuff tomorrow.

 

[Broncitis]

I will bet the farm that all those hot sleeved engines mentioned were all filled, that's a whole different story, the 434 stroker 400m I'm building for racing will be filled, how much I haven't decided yet. The sleeved diesels are a whole different animal in the design to maintain integrity and strength, I am no us 200/250 expert, but that engine cannot be described as a beefy block like the 300. One of the problems I see with the 200/250, is you can use a larger radiator, but you still have such a small water pump, a fan cooled oil cooler would be necessary. But then ectasy says it can be done and I really respect his opinion, I myself got a little wild with a 200, only the best can be used for 400hp in one of these engines, an admirable goal.

 

[mike1157]

I will bet the farm that all those hot sleeved engines mentioned were all filled, that's a whole different story, the 434 stroker 400m I'm building for racing will be filled, how much I haven't decided yet. The sleeved diesels are a whole different animal in the design to maintain integrity and strength, I am no us 200/250 expert, but that engine cannot be described as a beefy block like the 300. One of the problems I see with the 200/250, is you can use a larger radiator, but you still have such a small water pump, a fan cooled oil cooler would be necessary. But then ectasy says it can be done and I really respect his opinion, I myself got a little wild with a 200, only the best can be used for 400hp in one of these engines, an admirable goal.

Not gonna use the stock pump. Don't like the inlet hose jammed between the brackets, among other things.
I'm looking into using one of the 50 GPH electric pumps typical of what is on a SBC. The true external pumps w/ one inlet, and one outlet only are good for about half of that rated flow. I don't know exactly how I'll integrate one of the block mounted V8 pumps onto an engine that it wont fit on,.......but hmmmmm,...now that I think of it

The head didn't fit.
Now it does.

The cam didn't exist.
Now it does.

The lifters wouldn't fit.
Now they do.

The distributor didn't have a prayer of working.
I found another way.

The snout on the 300 balancer was too short.
Now it's not.

It'll just be one more bump to drive over on the road to making one of the most single-handed, red headed, step child engines ever built come to fruition.

 

[drag-200stang]

This is what real hot roding is about .

 

[mike1157]

Well,it's not 3.661 after all. It's not 3.681 either. It's 3.701.

Turns out that there are absolutely NO piston rings for a 3.681 bore that aren't stodgy, big assed, high drag stock junk. When I say stock junk, I mean a cast iron, or moly coated cast iron 1.5mm top ring, w/ a 3mm iron second, and a 3mm oil ring.

I figured that w/ all the 3.661 ring sets out there, finding a .020 over version would be a cinch,...but my piston guy called me today and told me he was bumping his head trying to find me a set. I called sealed power, total seal, and mahle just to be sure, and they all confirmed the same.

But go up to a 3.700, or 3.701 bore,.....and things get real right, real fast.
My piston guy was able to find a 1.2 mm steel top ring, 1.5mm cast iron second, 1.5 mm oil ring set easily enough after that.

Only problem is,..I gotta have my 3/32 wall, 3.6800 I.D. sleeve bored up .020 to accommodate.
Now I realize that that means i really only sacrifice .010 on each side of the bore to make that happen,..but if it's all the same I wish we wouldn't have had to do it.

So unless there is anything left of the original cylinder after they bore it out to accept the sleeve,...I'm gonna have to make due w/ a .075 final wall thickness.