350 horsepower?

[AzCoupe]

Well said Bort and Jack.

I like to look at it this way. Torque is what gets you going, horsepower is what keeps you going. The more TQ you have, the faster you'll leave the line. The more HP you have, the faster you can go. The first 500' is TQ and everything beyond is HP. EDIT: Provided you have a lot of RPMs.

I agree with Jack, the only way to make reliable HP in that range, is going to be with EFI. While expensive, the ultimate setup is triple TBI's with either a turbo or a supercharger. A supercharger yields improved low to mid range performance , while a turbo is better suited for mid to high range performamce.

Hence, if I were building a motor for city (light to light) driving, I would go with a S/C. If building for open road or highway I'd go with a turbo.

We are working on a system which will utalize the aluminum head, M90 blower, and a single throttle body. M90's are cheap and easy to find, as are throttle bodies. Since it won't be intercooled, the boost will be limited to 7psi, but that should be adaquete for our goals. This combo should put it some where in the 300-350hp range, making it an awesome system for a daily driver. Cheap, reliable, and easy to tune, with plenty of power and decent mileage. I plan to offer a kit which will include the cam, rockers, assembled cylinder head, intake, complete EFI system, and all the required bits and pieces (pulleys, belts, brackets, nut & bolts, etc). The blower and throttle body will be optional.

However, its just sitting on the bench right now. Unfortunately I used all my available capital developing the small six cylinder heads, intake manifolds, and the patterns for the big six head. Hence the R&D Department is tempararily closed until I can find an investor, or hit the lottery (wonder which will happen first). I do have a couple of investors that I'm taking with, so hopefully I'll be able to proceed shortly.

 

[Bort62]

Well said Bort and Jack.

I had to re-read what I wrote, lol.

I like to look at it this way. Torque is what gets you going, horsepower is what keeps you going. The more TQ you have, the faster you'll leave the line. The more HP you have, the faster you can go. The first 500' is TQ and everything beyond is HP.

That is probably an oversimplification in a lot of ways. All the torque in the world isn't going to get you going anywhere at 1 rpm. (At least, by automobile standards)

Torqe and RPM are pretty well analogous to voltage and current. You can re-arrange it however you like, but what you actually need to do a certain job is power, Horsepower or Watts.

The best way to measure/compare the performance of a vehicle is the summation of horsepower under the curve between usable RPM's (IE, shift points).

With Mike's head, I would suggests building a 200 as you would any other performance motor of the era, like a SBF.

If you want to make big power #'s, shoot for 5500-6500 RPM plus. If you want a well mannered street car, shoot for 5000 RPM or lower power peak.

There is nothing inherent about the 200 that makes it more well suited to low rpm than high rpm necessarily, other than the stock head - which for anyone actually building one of these for performance these days should no longer be an issue.

 

[AzCoupe]

That is probably an oversimplification in a lot of ways. All the torque in the world isn't going to get you going anywhere at 1 rpm. (At least, by automobile standards)

If you want to make big power #'s, shoot for 5500-6500 RPM plus. If you want a well mannered street car, shoot for 5000 RPM or lower power peak.

Thanks, once again, for the clarification. It's just that I have a such a simple mind.
However, all the rpm in the world isn't going to get you going anywhere either, if you only have 1lb of torque.

Torqe and RPM are pretty well analogous to voltage and current. You can re-arrange it however you like, but what you actually need to do a certain job is power

Humm.... Then I wonder why Will & Kelly's Falcon, with it's measily 312HP, blows the doors off cars with 500+HP?

 

[66 Fastback]

All the rpm in the world isn't going to get you going anywhere if you only have 1lb of torque.

That is an application for a very efficient gear reduction box. Kind of like a turbine engine.

Then I wonder why Will & Kelly's Falcon, with it's measily 312HP, blows the doors off cars with 500+HP?

Maybe the other guys have been fibbing about their 500 hp.
Doug

 

[Bort62]

Torque * RPM
------------ = Horsepower
....... 5252



No more, no less. I can apply over 500 ft lbs to the crankshaft of my car easily with a 5 foot breaker bar. Does that mean that, since I can make 500 ft-lbs I can accelerate that car as rapidly as that number, if mentioned in conversation would imply? Obviously not at all.

500 ft-lbs @ 2000 RPM will accelerate the car exactly as fast as 200 lbs @ 5000 RPM. EXACTLY.

There really is no difference. Both cars make 190 hp. Providing each car is geared properly they will accelerate exactly the same.

1 lb ft @ 100,000 RPM is 20 HP

It is area under the curve that matters. A peaky motor will have less area under the horsepower curve than one that has a "flat" curve, and as a result will perform better (unless you happen to have a CVT or otherwise very close ratio gearbox).

I'm not sure why you need to be so argumentative.

And anyone who claims to have a motor producing 500 horsepower and yet cannot run into the high 10's has some major issues with either their car's setup or their driving ability.

Or they need to unhitch that 24' travel trailer before their run.

 

[Bort62]

All the rpm in the world isn't going to get you going anywhere if you only have 1lb of torque.

That is an application for a very efficient gear reduction box. Kind of like a turbine engine.

Sure, except a turbine works in reverse. Very high RPM, very low (comparatively) torque. Tons of horsepower.

Gear reduction brings that RPM down into a useable range (just like an auto transmission and rearend).

 

[Bort62]

Anyway, as fun as this 21st digit measuring contest is, the underlying point is that there is nothing inherent to the 200 that makes it a "low rpm torque engine" except it's poorly breathing head. (You can argue rod ratio's if you like, but that's a second order issue at best).

A restrictive head doesn't make it a "torque" engine, it just makes it suck.

Put one of Mike's heads on, and you can treat the build just as if you were building a SBF or SBC of similar head flow #'s.

 

[AzCoupe]

500 ft-lbs @ 2000 RPM will accelerate the car exactly as fast as 200 lbs @ 5000 RPM. EXACTLY. There really is no difference.

While there may be no difference in power, one is definitely preferable over the other. As rpms increase, so does friction, heat, stress, and so on....... I'd much rather have a motor that produces 190HP @ 2000rpm, than one the produces the same power @5000rpm.

 

[82F100]

Mike, IIRC Does10's RWHP is around 340+. Also I wouldn't recommend a supercharger for a daily driver because ,though you'd mostly be using torque to drive from stop light to stop light a supercharger will be using up a percentage of your horsepower to even drive it in the first place. A turbo properly setup won't suffer any lag and won't cost you any HP in the lower rpms. I agree with Jack that EFI is the ticket for easability on the street lot easier to tune once the combo is dialed in.

 

[350kmileford]

Alright, I will consider Megasquirt as an option. I started reading into it but I need to go to work. Can someone give me the general idea of how the Megasquirt kit controls the spark? What sort of reference does it go off of and what sort of relationship ties it to the distributor?

 

[Anonymous]

Like I mentioned before, I will [eventually] be getting a worked aluminum head and turbo.

Now my decision is between smarter stoplight driverability or maximum rev power...

Since we are limited to intakes on the aluminum head, is there a specific RPM range that it performs best at?

In my case, the aluminum head works from 1000 to 6200 rpms!

Later,

Doug

 

[AzCoupe]

Mike, IIRC Does10's RWHP is around 340+.

The last dyno numbers I saw, were 312hp. However I think that was before the aluminum head was installed. At any rate, 312 or 340, the point remains the same, they are beating cars with considerably more horsepower. But thanks for correcting me.

Also I wouldn't recommend a supercharger for a daily driver because ,though you'd mostly be using torque to drive from stop light to stop light a supercharger will be using up a percentage of your horsepower to even drive it in the first place.

Tell that to Paxton, ProCharger, Kenny Bell, Vortech and a host of other companies that build superchargers. As well as Ford Motor Company, Carrol Shelby, Saleen, Roush, and numerous others. Could they all be wrong?

Supercharging your Mustang is one of the most effective and substantial ways to increase its power and performance. When done properly, a supercharger offers an astounding increase in power without hurting gas mileage or overall drivability.

Search the web, and you will find literally thousands of quotes similar to the one above. Obviously I'm not the only person in the world who believes a supercharger works nicely on a daily driver. If you give me enough time, I'll prove it. Or you can just ask Mustangaroo.

 

[Bort62]

500 ft-lbs @ 2000 RPM will accelerate the car exactly as fast as 200 lbs @ 5000 RPM. EXACTLY. There really is no difference.

While there may be no difference in power, one is definitely preferable over the other. As rpms increase, so does friction, heat, stress, and so on....... I'd much rather have a motor that produces 190HP @ 2000rpm, than one the produces the same power @5000rpm.

On this, at least, we can agree.

Also, re: supercharging, there is nothing wrong with supercharging on the street. Turbo Vs. Super is really just two different ways to accomplish the same thing. Each has it's pros and cons and the specifics of any given situation will dictate which is a better choice.

I think a positive displacement low boost supercharger would be an awesome bolt on type upgrade for these engines for the street.

Note that nearly all factory supercharged cars are of the positive displacement type.

 

[Jmonty]

Alright, I will consider Megasquirt as an option. I started reading into it but I need to go to work. Can someone give me the general idea of how the Megasquirt kit controls the spark? What sort of reference does it go off of and what sort of relationship ties it to the distributor?

Go to http://www.megasquirt.info and scroll down the page on the left side... to MegaSquirt II & then click on Ignition. It explains how it does what it does & how to hook it up for various ignitions.

I believe that someone on here said to get a Ford EEC-IV 4cyl distributor (which apparently will fit into our engines) & then replace the reluctor & cap with a 6 cyl version to get spark to our plugs. These distributors have no mechanical or vacuum advance, they allow the computer to control timing events completely. If you don't want/need the timing control right away, just use a MS-II to control fuel and let your dizzy with mech &/or vac advance control the ignition timing. The MS-I units only control fuel IIRC so if you just want the computer to handle fuel don't spend the extra $ for an MS-II.

 

[82F100]

AZCoupe, look at the dates on alot of those articles most are 4-10 years old, technology on turbo's have come along way.In no way am I an expert on the subject,but one would think a power enhancement that didn't take up 10-40% of your engines torgue just to drive it maybe creating 2 or 3 lbs of boost versus twice that much boost at the same rpm range say(2500-3000) where most of our engines are at during cruising range on the road would be more efficient. Not to mention turbos offer more mid range power vs. a supercharger.Common sense says we are looking for more and efficient power from our motors why would you start off by using precious power to make power and less effeicently at that.

 

[350kmileford]

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/vb921.htm

Perhaps I'll around stand it on my 5th read >_<

What sort of TBI would I use to support high power levels? I know I could go with individual throttle bodies and injectors, but that gets VERY expensive. The Tempo TBI can't flow nearly enough fuel. Could I somehow utilize a TBI from a V8 application? What to do . . .

Edit: Summit sell units such as these:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

Except it is rated at 670 cfm. One of the next steps down is 400 cfm but they say it's for a 2.8L! Is the cfm rating for fuel injection comparable to a carb? Technically I could mount one of these units to an intake like a stand Holley 4bbl, right?

 

[66 Fastback]

Bort Wrote

Sure, except a turbine works in reverse. Very high RPM, very low (comparatively) torque. Tons of horsepower.

Gear reduction brings that RPM down into a useable range (just like an auto transmission and rearend).

That is the point I was making (which by the way agrees with what you were stating). In order to make HP, the turbine requires tens of thousands or rpm's from its modest torque production at those elevated rpm's. When the gearbox brings it back down into a useable rpm range, it also multiplies the shaft torque.
Doug

 

[Does10s]

Mike, IIRC Does10's RWHP is around 340+.

The last dyno numbers I saw, were 312hp. However I think that was before the aluminum head was installed. At any rate, 312 or 340, the point remains the same, they are beating cars with considerably more horsepower. But thanks for correcting me.

Also I wouldn't recommend a supercharger for a daily driver because ,though you'd mostly be using torque to drive from stop light to stop light a supercharger will be using up a percentage of your horsepower to even drive it in the first place.

Tell that to Paxton, ProCharger, Kenny Bell, Vortech and a host of other companies that build superchargers. As well as Ford Motor Company, Carrol Shelby, Saleen, Roush, and numerous others. Could they all be wrong?

Supercharging your Mustang is one of the most effective and substantial ways to increase its power and performance. When done properly, a supercharger offers an astounding increase in power without hurting gas mileage or overall drivability.

Search the web, and you will find literally thousands of quotes similar to the one above. Obviously I'm not the only person in the world who believes a supercharger works nicely on a daily driver. If you give me enough time, I'll prove it. Or you can just ask Mustangaroo.

Mike,
Kelly's dyno run with the aluminum head was 323hp at the wheels. 502lb/ft at 2750rpm. I think the 323hp number was at 4200rpm or so. We also still had over 400lb/ft. at that same RPM.
If you use the 15% loss rule for the tranny and 9", then we're at 371hp at the flexplate.

I agree totally with Rich on the turbo vs. supercharger for a street motor. The reason the automakers and some aftermarket houses use the supercharger is that they sell, and are easier to install and package. Given everything is equal a turbo will always out power a supercharger. Ford is coming out with the "Ecoboost" deal which is turbo'd.

In my opinion, every single car should be turbo'd! Period!
Later,
Will

 

[AzCoupe]

What sort of TBI would I use to support high power levels? I know I could go with individual throttle bodies and injectors, but that gets VERY expensive. The Tempo TBI can't flow nearly enough fuel. Could I somehow utilize a TBI from a V8 application? What to do . . .

We'll be making adaptor plates for 5.0L throttle bodys, which will give you a wide selection of new or used.

The reason the automakers and some aftermarket houses use the supercharger is that they sell, and are easier to install and package.

What is this, everyone argue with AzCoupe month? Why do you guys feel that everyone must travel the same path, and go with a turbo. To argue that point would be like me telling you that you should have dropped in a V8 because they make horsepower per dollar. Some of us like to be different......
No matter how you look at it, superchargers DO make HP, and they are easy to install. They are a dime a dozen in the boneyards, which makes them afffordable, plus they have great eye appeal......

 

[Bort62]

[ What is this, everyone argue with AzCoupe month?

IMO a positive displacement blower has a place in the automotive aftermarket as an easy bolt on kick in the pants for any relatively stock motor. Up to 7 non intercooled PSI off idle can make a car accelerate a lot harder out of the hole and a lot more fun to drive. Because they are draw through the installation is fairly simple. This is why the roots style blowers are so popular on hotrods and streetrods.

It really won't make a car hugely faster, however. A cetrifugal supercharger IMO is a waste of effort. It is basically a less efficient belt driven turbo. The only reason you would go centrifigaul SC (like the procharger or a vortec) is because you are trying to build high-RPM power, in which case a turbo will be both cheaper and more effective.

Mike, it's not that we are all trying to argue with you - it's just that you aren't always right, either. Dissent and discussion is what a message board is all about.